2009-11-07T10:59:03  <Procyon> OK
2009-11-07T10:59:16  <Procyon> Welcome everybody, and thank you so much for coming.
2009-11-07T10:59:29  <Procyon> I will skip the usual preamble, as there is not too much to report.
2009-11-07T10:59:40  <Procyon> We haven't broken a lot of ground with gamewiki.com, and that is mostly my fault.
2009-11-07T10:59:56  <Procyon> We hope to get a dev environment established in the near future.
2009-11-07T10:59:59  <Procyon> Next week if possible.
2009-11-07T11:00:09  <Procyon> So we have a few things to figure out today.
2009-11-07T11:00:38  <Procyon> Pardon me while I pull up the abxy forum post
2009-11-07T11:01:31  <Procyon> OK, the agenda will be as follows: 1) External images, 2) Follow-up to sysop response to bad edits, and then the bigger discussion, 3) site scope.
2009-11-07T11:01:42  <Procyon> Prod, would you like to address the first topic?
2009-11-07T11:01:49  <Prod> Sure
2009-11-07T11:01:54  <Prod> so the first topic relates to this thread:
2009-11-07T11:01:54  <Prod> http://forums.abxy.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=26451
2009-11-07T11:02:23  <Prod> Essentially, leaving external images wide open is relatively dangerous
2009-11-07T11:02:40  <Prod> our sysops do a good job patrolling to make sure nothing is up that shouldn't be
2009-11-07T11:02:52  <Prod> but we now have technical functionality to make it easier/safer
2009-11-07T11:03:03  <Prod> In a recent update
2009-11-07T11:03:16  <Prod> they added an external image whitelist
2009-11-07T11:03:17  <Prod> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki:External_image_whitelist
2009-11-07T11:03:33  <Prod> meaning we can selectively allow external images from specific sites
2009-11-07T11:04:26  *** Prod has quit IRC
2009-11-07T11:04:38  <Procyon> whoops
2009-11-07T11:04:45  *** Prod has joined #SW-Meeting
2009-11-07T11:04:48  <Procyon> Prod will be right back.
2009-11-07T11:04:51  <Procyon> there he is.
2009-11-07T11:04:52  *** ChanServ sets mode: +qo Prod Prod
2009-11-07T11:05:22  <Prod> Any objections?
2009-11-07T11:05:42  <Notmyhandle> Object to using the whitelist?
2009-11-07T11:05:43  <najzere> What will it look like on pages?
2009-11-07T11:05:44  <Prod> .:14·07·19:. «~Prod» So, if there aren't any objections
2009-11-07T11:05:44  <Prod> .:14·07·29:. «~Prod» we will be enabling this over the weekend
2009-11-07T11:06:20  <Prod> Disabling all external images except what is allowed through this whitelist
2009-11-07T11:06:35  <Skizzerz> najzere: external images that aren't in the whitelist will appear as a link to that image instead of showing the image itself
2009-11-07T11:06:54  <najzere> Oh, cool.
2009-11-07T11:07:03  <Deviance> I don't object external images at all
2009-11-07T11:07:11  <Deviance> For the fact we can host them on the wiki
2009-11-07T11:07:16  <Prod> exactly
2009-11-07T11:07:21  <Sigma7> I recommend it, mainly because external images are outisde out control.
2009-11-07T11:07:24  <Procyon> I don't object to the whitelist.
2009-11-07T11:07:36  <Skizzerz> same
2009-11-07T11:07:38  <najzere> Any rules for adding to the whitelist?
2009-11-07T11:07:49  <Prod> for now
2009-11-07T11:07:51  <Procyon> Yeah, we should lay them out prettyclearly.
2009-11-07T11:07:59  <Prod> i'm suggesting we stick to only major sets
2009-11-07T11:08:03  <Prod> not for the single exceptions
2009-11-07T11:08:09  <Deviance> Ok any issues with my Devibot RSS feeder?
2009-11-07T11:08:12  <Prod> so internal images
2009-11-07T11:08:25  <najzere> What's the reason for that?
2009-11-07T11:08:26  <Prod> and youtube (since we use them a lot)
2009-11-07T11:08:28  <Skizzerz> Deviance: we'll bring that up later
2009-11-07T11:09:08  <Procyon> Naj: ease of management I would assume.
2009-11-07T11:09:16  <Prod> the main reason we're using internal images right now is so they don't link to the image page
2009-11-07T11:09:38  <najzere> Okay, well maybe we can discuss it on the talk page.
2009-11-07T11:09:46  <najzere> I like the whitelist too.
2009-11-07T11:10:21  <Skizzerz> Prod: you mean external images? And also, there is now a link= parameter for internal images, so we don't need externals for that now anyway
2009-11-07T11:10:27  <Prod> right
2009-11-07T11:10:31  <Prod> so i was just about to bring that up :)
2009-11-07T11:10:42  <Prod> images can now link to specific pages instead of just their image page
2009-11-07T11:10:46  <Notmyhandle> w00t
2009-11-07T11:10:57  <Procyon> What's the syntax?
2009-11-07T11:11:07  <Notmyhandle> [[File:Image.png|link=??]]
2009-11-07T11:11:12  <najzere> Yeah.
2009-11-07T11:11:13  <Skizzerz> [[File:Image.jpg|link=Some page|description goeth hereth]]
2009-11-07T11:11:23  <najzere> Let me know if anyone figures out how to change the tooltip text.
2009-11-07T11:11:28  <najzere> It's ugly for on-page anchors.
2009-11-07T11:11:36  <Prod> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/The_Dog_Island/Fish_Collector#Fish_Collector_book
2009-11-07T11:11:43  <Prod> you can look at the example there
2009-11-07T11:11:55  <Skizzerz> najzere: you set a description
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2009-11-07T11:12:08  <Skizzerz> [[File:Image.png|link=#foo|foo]]
2009-11-07T11:12:17  <Procyon> Hey Sigma!
2009-11-07T11:12:18  <Notmyhandle> Naj: you
2009-11-07T11:12:18  <najzere> I tried that on Template:System browser.
2009-11-07T11:12:26  <Notmyhandle> Hm...
2009-11-07T11:12:26  <najzere> Didn't work.
2009-11-07T11:12:42  <ashley> iirc it doesn't work on 1.15, but works on 1.16...
2009-11-07T11:12:44  <najzere> By the way, completion stage images now link to the appropriate categories.
2009-11-07T11:12:46  <ashley> try it on a wikimedia wiki
2009-11-07T11:12:52  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T11:12:53  <ashley> like mediawiki.org or english wikipedia
2009-11-07T11:13:15  <Procyon> Awesome
2009-11-07T11:13:23  *** Sigma7 has quit IRC
2009-11-07T11:13:29  *** Sigma7_ is now known as Sigma7
2009-11-07T11:13:49  <Notmyhandle> Naj: what didn't work on System Browser? It doesn't use on-page anchors...
2009-11-07T11:14:37  <najzere> I know...Heh.
2009-11-07T11:14:44  <najzere> The image link for "Other".
2009-11-07T11:14:45  <Procyon> I want to keep the momentum going here,
2009-11-07T11:14:49  <najzere> Wanted it to say "Other".
2009-11-07T11:14:53  <najzere> Not Category:systems.
2009-11-07T11:14:53  <Procyon> So if there's more to figure out about it,
2009-11-07T11:15:07  <Procyon> we can delve into it further in the Staff Lounge.
2009-11-07T11:15:21  <Prod> external images are now disabled and based on the whitelist
2009-11-07T11:15:21  <Procyon> But for a consensus, everyone is cool with the whitelist?
2009-11-07T11:15:26  <najzere> Aye
2009-11-07T11:15:40  <ashley> yay whitelist :)
2009-11-07T11:15:47  <Notmyhandle> Aye
2009-11-07T11:16:03  <Skizzerz> eye
2009-11-07T11:16:06  <Prod> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/World_of_Pirates/Maps
2009-11-07T11:16:16  <Prod> You can see what it did to the external image there
2009-11-07T11:16:21  <najzere> yeah, looks good.
2009-11-07T11:16:23  <Prod> it has now been switched to a link
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2009-11-07T11:16:46  <Procyon> Cool,.
2009-11-07T11:17:01  <Procyon> OK,
2009-11-07T11:17:09  <Procyon> I'm sure as we continue to use it,
2009-11-07T11:17:12  <Procyon> questions may arise,
2009-11-07T11:17:19  <Procyon> but we can field them offline.
2009-11-07T11:17:47  <Procyon> The next agenda topic is just to follow up our discussion in Staff Lounge about our responses to bad edits.
2009-11-07T11:18:09  <Procyon> I have noticed particular efforts by Naj and NMH to personalize their requests a little more,
2009-11-07T11:18:17  <Procyon> and I really appreciate that effort.
2009-11-07T11:18:33  <Procyon> There's no real way to discern how much difference that approach makes,
2009-11-07T11:18:46  <najzere> Any bit probably helps...
2009-11-07T11:18:59  <Procyon> And I think with RobJ, there was no way we could satisfy him.
2009-11-07T11:19:04  <Procyon> He had an ax to grind,
2009-11-07T11:19:28  <Notmyhandle> Well thats a different issue.
2009-11-07T11:19:29  <Procyon> I don't know how much there is to discuss,
2009-11-07T11:19:38  <Procyon> but does anyone have any thoughts on the topic?
2009-11-07T11:19:42  <najzere> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Category_talk:Message_templates
2009-11-07T11:19:44  <najzere> For later.
2009-11-07T11:19:50  <Prod> well theres a few "messages" i'd prefer we stopped using
2009-11-07T11:19:55  <Notmyhandle> Such as?
2009-11-07T11:19:58  <Prod> the "stop many edits to the same page"
2009-11-07T11:19:59  <Procyon> It's something I believe we should have a unified approach on.
2009-11-07T11:20:26  <najzere> I'm okay with Template:Consolidate going away
2009-11-07T11:20:27  <Prod> right now the reasoning is "it makes our life easier to not have to go through so many edits"
2009-11-07T11:20:31  <Prod> which is a terrible reason
2009-11-07T11:20:44  <najzere> I thought it had more to do with the history...
2009-11-07T11:20:59  <Prod> that reason is a bit more elegant, but i don't think it's helpful
2009-11-07T11:21:17  <najzere> Yeah, we should probably just be happy they're editing at all. :)
2009-11-07T11:21:18  <Notmyhandle> Yeah it makes us seem rude.
2009-11-07T11:21:19  <Prod> all our histories become a mess eventually, but it's really just there for tracking
2009-11-07T11:21:23  <Prod> exactly
2009-11-07T11:21:25  <Prod> however
2009-11-07T11:21:36  <Prod> the suggestion should be that they can use the edit link at the top
2009-11-07T11:21:39  <Prod> and show preview
2009-11-07T11:21:47  <Prod> so that they don't have to keep waiting for page loads
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2009-11-07T11:21:57  <Prod> that helps them
2009-11-07T11:22:02  <Notmyhandle> Right, cut out the part about why we want you to do it, and just promote better editing techniques.
2009-11-07T11:22:05  <Skizzerz> it should be worded less forcefully, giving them the impression that it is in their best interest to consolidate edits, not ours
2009-11-07T11:22:18  <Skizzerz> something like what Prod said is good
2009-11-07T11:22:42  <najzere> Yes, less forceful and more on their side is a good idea for all the message templates.
2009-11-07T11:22:51  <Skizzerz> indeed
2009-11-07T11:23:43  <najzere> On the subject...
2009-11-07T11:23:46  <Notmyhandle> Using automated templates, we shouldn't be authoritative, just informative.
2009-11-07T11:23:52  <najzere> I don't want to see all templates going away.
2009-11-07T11:24:08  <Procyon> I agree, they are too useful.
2009-11-07T11:24:11  <najzere> I know "personalized messages" are good, but in the end we'll be saying the same thing over and over and it becomes a template anyway.
2009-11-07T11:24:33  <Sigma7> "Randomized template message".
2009-11-07T11:24:50  <Prod> right
2009-11-07T11:25:01  <najzere> On the message template category talk page I suggested not using the second and third round of templates, but instead using personal messages for any time you have to reiterate something.
2009-11-07T11:25:09  <Prod> {{consolidate}} << needs to be fixed though
2009-11-07T11:25:33  <Notmyhandle> The issue is that we offend people when we say "do it this way because it annoys me/us". It should be "do it this way because it's the better way."
2009-11-07T11:26:50  <Procyon> OK,
2009-11-07T11:27:02  <Procyon> we'll make fixing the consolidate msg an action item.
2009-11-07T11:27:21  <Procyon> Would anyone like to take that on?
2009-11-07T11:27:40  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T11:27:41  <Procyon> ij
2009-11-07T11:27:42  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T11:27:46  <Notmyhandle> We'll jump on it after the meeting
2009-11-07T11:27:49  <Procyon> We'll come back to it.
2009-11-07T11:27:51  <Procyon> Cool.
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2009-11-07T11:28:00  <Procyon> Wow, S7 is having a difficult time.
2009-11-07T11:28:08  <Procyon> OK, then before we open the meeting up,
2009-11-07T11:28:14  <Skizzerz> wait
2009-11-07T11:28:19  <Procyon> it's time to discuss the scope issue...
2009-11-07T11:28:21  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T11:28:23  <Skizzerz> there is still one issue on sysop responses
2009-11-07T11:28:27  <Skizzerz> banning
2009-11-07T11:28:47  <Procyon> What about it specifically?
2009-11-07T11:28:52  <Skizzerz> some sysops warn, others just ban right away on vandalism type edits, we need to figure out what we should do
2009-11-07T11:29:07  <Prod> I believe there's a policy up on the sysop page
2009-11-07T11:29:08  <najzere> According to the admin guide, it's three warnings then a 2 hour ban.
2009-11-07T11:29:16  <Procyon> I think our current policy is pretty good.
2009-11-07T11:29:19  <Skizzerz> hmm, ok
2009-11-07T11:29:22  <Prod> three warnings?
2009-11-07T11:29:24  <Procyon> Naj: thats' for registered users.
2009-11-07T11:29:27  <najzere> It's not followed all that well.
2009-11-07T11:29:29  <Procyon> Not for anons
2009-11-07T11:29:38  <Rocky> that seems a bit much
2009-11-07T11:29:38  <najzere> Yes, IPs usually get blocked preemptively.
2009-11-07T11:29:45  <Notmyhandle> Anon users: case by case basis has been the procedure, correct?
2009-11-07T11:29:49  <Notmyhandle> Depending on the vandalism
2009-11-07T11:29:52  <Procyon> True
2009-11-07T11:29:53  <Skizzerz> something like that
2009-11-07T11:29:59  <Prod> depending on the vandalism, there's a escalation procedure
2009-11-07T11:30:02  <Prod> ie, few hours
2009-11-07T11:30:04  <Procyon> Rocky: too much as in too nice or too harsh?
2009-11-07T11:30:06  <Prod> if they return then few days
2009-11-07T11:30:10  <Notmyhandle> If an anon vandalizes an MS page, I ban them for 1-3 months.
2009-11-07T11:30:12  <Rocky> too nice
2009-11-07T11:30:12  <Prod> (or something like that)
2009-11-07T11:30:22  <Prod> we still need newbies
2009-11-07T11:30:35  <Procyon> Rocky: It's to show benefit of the doubt.
2009-11-07T11:30:40  <Procyon> Actually, you know,
2009-11-07T11:30:46  <Procyon> I wasn't going to weigh in too much on this,
2009-11-07T11:30:50  <najzere> Rocky: It takes a while, but I've had users come around with the third message that ensuing infractions will be bannable.
2009-11-07T11:30:50  <Procyon> but one thing I will say,
2009-11-07T11:31:13  <Procyon> is that I was actually very happy with some of the consensus that came out of that discussion,
2009-11-07T11:31:16  <Procyon> specifically,
2009-11-07T11:31:23  <Procyon> that we are a project,
2009-11-07T11:31:50  <Procyon> and we don't exist for the sake of allowing everyone and anyone to contribute what they want.
2009-11-07T11:31:53  <Procyon> We have standards,
2009-11-07T11:32:06  <Procyon> and I think we do our utmost to make those standards easy to follow.
2009-11-07T11:32:17  <Notmyhandle> Well, that's the goal.
2009-11-07T11:32:18  <Procyon> We don't officiate what people put on walkthrough pages,
2009-11-07T11:32:31  <Procyon> we just ask that they at least add a header and footer nav.
2009-11-07T11:32:41  <Procyon> NMH: Which is?
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2009-11-07T11:33:10  <Notmyhandle> Make it easy to edit, allow some transparency, etc. We don't have an official vision so it's hard for me to say what it is.
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2009-11-07T11:33:31  <Procyon> Sorry...
2009-11-07T11:33:39  <Notmyhandle> But what I'm saying is that we try to do something for a reason, but whether we do it well or not... that reflects our success.
2009-11-07T11:33:59  <Notmyhandle> Goal: [11:36] <Notmyhandle> Make it easy to edit, allow some transparency, etc. We don't have an official vision so it's hard for me to say what it is.
2009-11-07T11:34:12  <Prod> i think we under-utilize short bans
2009-11-07T11:34:20  <Procyon> Well, I thin kour vision is pretty solid.
2009-11-07T11:34:20  <Notmyhandle> definitely
2009-11-07T11:34:23  <Prod> most vandals are just here to be: "oh cool we can edit lets break something"
2009-11-07T11:34:47  <Prod> but if they're banned for a few hours
2009-11-07T11:34:47  <Skizzerz> right, so, keep the current policy is the general consensus then?
2009-11-07T11:34:51  <Prod> they will move on to something else
2009-11-07T11:34:57  <Skizzerz> except with relaxed bans for anons
2009-11-07T11:35:05  <Prod> one other point
2009-11-07T11:35:12  <Prod> i think sigma7 was doing this
2009-11-07T11:35:17  <Prod> but using the 18 hour ban
2009-11-07T11:35:18  <najzere> Relaxed as in ban them more or less?
2009-11-07T11:35:29  <Skizzerz> najzere: relaxed as in shorter ban times
2009-11-07T11:35:43  <Procyon> Does anyone know of a good way to get a feel for what "the internet" has to say about SW in general?
2009-11-07T11:35:44  <Notmyhandle> Small bans = made your point, now I will listen.
2009-11-07T11:35:46  <najzere> Better fit for their attention spans.
2009-11-07T11:35:49  <Skizzerz> like, the first offense might be a few hours or a day instead of a month
2009-11-07T11:35:51  <Prod> though i'd prefer if sigma was around to go into detail on that one
2009-11-07T11:36:05  <Skizzerz> Procyon: polls! cause those are ALWAYS unbiased
2009-11-07T11:36:10  <Skizzerz> </sarcasm>
2009-11-07T11:36:12  <Notmyhandle> Proc: most people who use it as a reader don't know us at all.
2009-11-07T11:36:19  <najzere> Well, the internet would have to know about us first...
2009-11-07T11:36:28  <Procyon> Skiz: I don't know, when you see an anon edit something with "Ur gay, fuck you", I have no problem banning them for a month.
2009-11-07T11:36:42  <Skizzerz> yes, it'd still be case by case
2009-11-07T11:36:51  <Prod> but even that i'd say is only a few hour ban
2009-11-07T11:37:03  <Procyon> Really?
2009-11-07T11:37:06  <Notmyhandle> Yeah why not?
2009-11-07T11:37:10  <Prod> they're just passing through and couldn't figure out anything better to say
2009-11-07T11:37:25  <Prod> if they come back
2009-11-07T11:37:26  <Procyon> Cuz we're saying "come back in a few hours to insult us again."
2009-11-07T11:37:29  <Prod> it shows up they were banned before
2009-11-07T11:37:31  <najzere> I personally don't even bother banning IPs unless I see they have other contribs/deleted contribs.
2009-11-07T11:37:32  <Notmyhandle> Some vandalism is just for fun, and the person could turn around and help later.
2009-11-07T11:37:33  <Prod> and then make it longer
2009-11-07T11:37:50  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T11:38:15  <Prod> most people haven't seen editing live content, and want to see what happens
2009-11-07T11:38:26  <Procyon> OK, I think we have a good consensus on this for now.
2009-11-07T11:38:41  <Procyon> We can readdress if any further issues arise.
2009-11-07T11:38:44  <najzere> Seems like we're all over the board to me.
2009-11-07T11:38:52  <Procyon> Really?
2009-11-07T11:38:57  <Procyon> Hmm...
2009-11-07T11:39:04  <najzere> Uh. What's the consensus?
2009-11-07T11:39:05  <Skizzerz> well, we don't have time to discuss this at the moment
2009-11-07T11:39:10  <najzere> Start with hour bans?
2009-11-07T11:39:14  <najzere> Okay.
2009-11-07T11:39:15  <Skizzerz> perhaps bring it to the forums or staff lounge again
2009-11-07T11:39:24  <Procyon> Well, we can use the time however we see fit,
2009-11-07T11:39:38  <Prod> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/StrategyWiki:Guide/Admin_guide#Banning_and_Unbanning_Users
2009-11-07T11:39:38  <Procyon> although if we wish to keep the meetings short, than Skiz's suggestion is wise.
2009-11-07T11:39:42  <Prod> follow the policy i believe
2009-11-07T11:40:08  <Procyon> Any objections?
2009-11-07T11:40:17  <Procyon> Or proposed changes to the policy as it stands?
2009-11-07T11:40:52  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T11:41:03  <Procyon> We'll double back to this if necessary.
2009-11-07T11:41:08  <Procyon> Primarily,
2009-11-07T11:41:19  <Procyon> I just felt it was a good idea to keep it on people's minds.
2009-11-07T11:41:26  <Procyon> So now we get to the scope issue./
2009-11-07T11:41:53  <Notmyhandle> ================== Scope ========================
2009-11-07T11:42:06  <Procyon> I did my best to summarize the questionable game types on the forum.
2009-11-07T11:42:17  <Procyon> Wow NMH, that's like a level 17 header o_O;
2009-11-07T11:42:19  <Procyon> ^_^
2009-11-07T11:42:31  <Notmyhandle> On topic plz XD
2009-11-07T11:42:45  <Procyon> sorry :)
2009-11-07T11:42:47  <Procyon> OK,
2009-11-07T11:43:01  <Procyon> The types that I could think of were as follows:
2009-11-07T11:43:32  <Procyon> Unlicensed games, ROM Hacks, Indie games, Fan games, Flash games, and to a lesser extent, emulators.
2009-11-07T11:43:56  <Procyon> We'll go through each of them,
2009-11-07T11:44:07  <Procyon> debate them briefly,
2009-11-07T11:44:10  <Procyon> and vote.
2009-11-07T11:44:18  <Procyon> So first up is unlicensed games.
2009-11-07T11:44:26  <najzere> Is this necessary?
2009-11-07T11:44:34  <Procyon> Which>
2009-11-07T11:44:34  <Procyon> ?
2009-11-07T11:44:39  <Prod> any other suggestions of how we would go about it?
2009-11-07T11:44:40  <najzere> Is anyone going to only be for SOME of these and not others?
2009-11-07T11:44:48  <Procyon> I am,
2009-11-07T11:44:55  <najzere> Okay, then, proceed sir.
2009-11-07T11:45:02  <Procyon> lol, ok :)
2009-11-07T11:45:06  <najzere> I'm for unlicensed inclusion.
2009-11-07T11:45:11  <Notmyhandle> Same
2009-11-07T11:45:27  <Procyon> Examples of unlisenced games are getting rarer these days, but famous examples include the Tengen and Color Dreams games for the NES.
2009-11-07T11:45:40  <Skizzerz> I'm fine with unlicensed
2009-11-07T11:45:46  <Notmyhandle> Brazilian releases
2009-11-07T11:45:51  <Rocky> OK with me
2009-11-07T11:45:53  <Prod> what's the definition of an unlicenesd game?
2009-11-07T11:45:57  <Procyon> To be honest, I had a difficult time coming up with examples of modern unlicensed games.
2009-11-07T11:46:03  <Notmyhandle> A game that never was licensed by the console owner
2009-11-07T11:46:10  <Notmyhandle> A license is a contractual agreement
2009-11-07T11:46:14  <Procyon> Prod: Any game released for a system without the system's manufacturer given permission.
2009-11-07T11:46:27  <Notmyhandle> It defines how sales will be made, how the licensor has control over the game (censoring), etc.
2009-11-07T11:46:32  <Prod> but they're made by "official game companies"?
2009-11-07T11:46:40  <najzere> Not necessarily.
2009-11-07T11:46:44  <Notmyhandle> The companies were real
2009-11-07T11:46:45  <Procyon> Some were, some weren't.
2009-11-07T11:46:57  <najzere> I know of a guy making a Game Boy game right now.
2009-11-07T11:47:01  <najzere> Pressing his own cartridges.
2009-11-07T11:47:11  <Procyon> Naj: Wouldn't that be considered an indie game?
2009-11-07T11:47:14  <Procyon> Or homebrew at the most.
2009-11-07T11:47:16  <Procyon> Oh!
2009-11-07T11:47:23  <Procyon> Homebrew is another category.
2009-11-07T11:47:24  <najzere> Those categories aren't mutually exclusive.
2009-11-07T11:47:33  <Notmyhandle> Homebrew/Indie = same thing
2009-11-07T11:47:42  <Procyon> Naj: Does he plan on selling it in cart format, or just releasing the OM on the net?
2009-11-07T11:47:43  <Notmyhandle> Homebrew typically aren't published commercially
2009-11-07T11:47:44  <Procyon> ROM
2009-11-07T11:47:59  <najzere> I'm not sure.
2009-11-07T11:48:10  <najzere> I think he wants to sell it, but may be constrained by the legalities.
2009-11-07T11:48:12  <Procyon> OK,
2009-11-07T11:48:13  <Procyon> well,
2009-11-07T11:48:15  <najzere> He's not based overseas.
2009-11-07T11:48:33  <Notmyhandle> Alright hold off on the other sections at the moment
2009-11-07T11:48:39  <Procyon> I think you'd be super hard pressed to find an unlisenced game for the PS2/PS3, GameCube/Wii, Xbox/360.
2009-11-07T11:48:42  <Notmyhandle> Prod did you have any other questions about unlicensed games?
2009-11-07T11:48:43  <najzere> Let's state for the record that guides for all those categories are perfectly legal.
2009-11-07T11:48:46  <Procyon> Maybe for the PS1 and Dreamcast.
2009-11-07T11:48:56  <Procyon> Yes, that is true.
2009-11-07T11:49:01  <najzere> True. We're mainly talking about older consoles.
2009-11-07T11:49:16  <Prod> so...do we actually have a final definition on that?
2009-11-07T11:49:24  <Procyon> Given that circumstance, I have absolutely no problem including these.
2009-11-07T11:49:39  <najzere> Game plays on a real system without the system owner's permission.
2009-11-07T11:49:43  <Notmyhandle> Definition on what Prod?
2009-11-07T11:49:44  <Procyon> I don't think anyone does (except for Rob, who's puritanical stance was not shared by the rest of us.)
2009-11-07T11:50:03  <Prod> (Procyon): except for me (well not as extreme)
2009-11-07T11:50:19  <Procyon> Prod: Remember how Nintendo put the "Nintendo Seal of Quality" on all licensed games?
2009-11-07T11:50:20  <Prod> but unless we can properly classify the game into one of the categories
2009-11-07T11:50:27  <Prod> there is no way it can be properly decided
2009-11-07T11:50:31  <Procyon> Oh, ok, I see what you mean:
2009-11-07T11:50:37  <najzere> Unless we decide to include all of them.
2009-11-07T11:50:40  <Prod> but then doesn't that fall into homebrew/indie?
2009-11-07T11:50:49  <Procyon> An unlicensed game would be a commercially sold game without the permission of the system manufacturer.
2009-11-07T11:51:02  <Procyon> It had to be sold in a store, in a box with documentation, like an official release,
2009-11-07T11:51:03  <Notmyhandle> Indie games typically don't come from game development studios
2009-11-07T11:51:16  <Notmyhandle> if they do, then later games from that company aren't indie games
2009-11-07T11:51:18  <Procyon> it just wasn't supported by Nintendo/Sony/Sega/M$, etc.
2009-11-07T11:51:20  <Prod> ok, I would support unlicensed games by official game companies
2009-11-07T11:51:30  <najzere> Haah.
2009-11-07T11:51:33  <Prod> :)
2009-11-07T11:51:51  <Procyon> There's also a ton of hentai games for the Famicom that were unlicences.
2009-11-07T11:51:52  <Notmyhandle> UNLICENSED GAMES: inclusion accepted.l
2009-11-07T11:51:55  <Procyon> unlicensed.
2009-11-07T11:52:15  <Procyon> tentacle rape ftw
2009-11-07T11:52:27  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T11:52:30  <Notmyhandle> Najzere's got those ones covered.
2009-11-07T11:52:37  <Procyon> LOL
2009-11-07T11:52:38  * najzere nods smugly
2009-11-07T11:52:43  <Procyon> Next is ROM Hacks.
2009-11-07T11:52:49  <Procyon> Now, I have to admit,
2009-11-07T11:52:50  <najzere> For inclusion.
2009-11-07T11:52:59  <Notmyhandle> ROM Hacks should be excluded by default
2009-11-07T11:53:03  <Procyon> I'm for these if they are notable.
2009-11-07T11:53:05  <Skizzerz> this one is a sticky subject
2009-11-07T11:53:10  <Notmyhandle> Procyon: agreed
2009-11-07T11:53:10  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T11:53:25  <najzere> I'm for non-notable games as well.
2009-11-07T11:53:26  <Prod> then you have to argue notability
2009-11-07T11:53:27  <Procyon> Gfx hacks are strictly out since there's nothing to talk about.
2009-11-07T11:53:44  <Procyon> To be included, ROM Hacks should present some measure of new game play or walkthrough advice.
2009-11-07T11:53:54  <Prod> i'm not fond of rom hacks
2009-11-07T11:53:56  <Skizzerz> I'm going to remain neutral in this one
2009-11-07T11:54:20  <Procyon> Essentially, romhacking.net is the singe best resource for hacks that should be considered notable.
2009-11-07T11:54:39  <Procyon> Thebest example of a ROM Hack guide that we currently host is Mario Adventure.
2009-11-07T11:54:46  <najzere> I'd rather get rid of notability requirements altogether.
2009-11-07T11:54:52  <Procyon> It is an incredible hack, with quality worthy of Nintendo.
2009-11-07T11:54:57  <Prod> i'd rather get rid of rom hacks all together
2009-11-07T11:55:06  <Prod> altogether *
2009-11-07T11:55:13  <najzere> It also has a link to page where you can get the ROM hack on the front page of the guide.
2009-11-07T11:55:18  <Notmyhandle> Super Mario Forever = a great game. ='(
2009-11-07T11:55:28  <Procyon> Naj: But then you open yourself up to Stupid hacks like "Super Toilet Bros." and "Super Booger Bros." etc.
2009-11-07T11:55:35  <najzere> That's fine with me.
2009-11-07T11:55:35  <Prod> how fun the game is, is irrelevant
2009-11-07T11:55:38  <Procyon> NMH: Thank you, that's the one I meant.
2009-11-07T11:55:42  * najzere opens himself up.
2009-11-07T11:55:48  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T11:55:55  * Prod shields his eyes
2009-11-07T11:56:01  <Procyon> Super Mario Forever is a great game.
2009-11-07T11:56:03  <Procyon> Now,
2009-11-07T11:56:03  * najzere wiggles it.
2009-11-07T11:56:04  <Notmyhandle> Prod: I found Super Mario Forever through YouTube's audience
2009-11-07T11:56:07  <Notmyhandle> A lot of people know about it
2009-11-07T11:56:24  <Prod> in rom circles
2009-11-07T11:56:34  <Procyon> Prod:
2009-11-07T11:56:45  <Procyon> Not neccesarily,
2009-11-07T11:56:49  <najzere> Can I saw something about consensus here?
2009-11-07T11:56:50  <Procyon> Really more in emulation circles.
2009-11-07T11:57:00  <Notmyhandle> 560,000 views: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ0nHxXeqzM
2009-11-07T11:57:02  <Prod> (najzere): no getting violent
2009-11-07T11:57:15  <najzere> I think the fact that these guides are being created all the time speaks higher of community consensus then us eight "regulars".
2009-11-07T11:57:24  <Procyon> ROM circles actually tend to exclude hacks, if you follow the No-Intro crowd.
2009-11-07T11:57:26  <najzere> Apparently our community wants these.
2009-11-07T11:57:34  <Prod> http://strategywiki.org/w/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Forever&action=history
2009-11-07T11:57:39  <Prod> look who created the guide....
2009-11-07T11:57:46  <Prod> i don't see a non-regular on there
2009-11-07T11:57:50  <najzere> There's more than one guide.
2009-11-07T11:58:03  <Procyon> Oh no, that's not the one I meant then.
2009-11-07T11:58:18  <Procyon> I meant this one; http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Mario_Adventure
2009-11-07T11:59:01  <Procyon> iT'S AN INCREDIBLE PIECE OF WORK.
2009-11-07T11:59:02  <Procyon> Whoops,
2009-11-07T11:59:05  <Procyon> sorry, caps...
2009-11-07T11:59:10  <Prod> mario forever actually gets more hits than that one
2009-11-07T11:59:15  <najzere> If we let someone join with Booger Mario or whatever, there's a greater chance they'll turn into a regular editor than if we delete what they were working on for scope.
2009-11-07T11:59:19  <Procyon> The other one is the Second Reality Project.
2009-11-07T11:59:30  <najzere> I'm pretty sure Skierpage isnt' going to stick around when SM63 gets the boot.
2009-11-07T11:59:33  <Prod> the guide may be good, the game may be fun
2009-11-07T11:59:37  <Prod> but where do we cut it off?
2009-11-07T11:59:39  <Notmyhandle> Najzere: I agree.
2009-11-07T11:59:45  <Procyon> This is another incredible hack: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Super_Mario_World:_The_Second_Reality_Project_Reloaded
2009-11-07T11:59:45  <najzere> We don't cut it off.
2009-11-07T11:59:51  <najzere> SW is for editors, not administrators.
2009-11-07T12:00:01  <Notmyhandle> Naj: if we already had the restrictive scope, he would never have come here.
2009-11-07T12:00:02  <Procyon> BUT
2009-11-07T12:00:07  <Procyon> SM63 is not a hack,
2009-11-07T12:00:08  <Procyon> it's a fan game
2009-11-07T12:00:19  <najzere> I'm just talking about scope in general.
2009-11-07T12:00:25  <Procyon> Naj: I agree with you up to a certain point:
2009-11-07T12:00:45  <Procyon> Naj: We should be a little discresionary when it comes to what we include on the site.
2009-11-07T12:00:54  <najzere> Why?
2009-11-07T12:01:01  <Procyon> Quality control.
2009-11-07T12:01:03  <najzere> We're afraid of looking bad?
2009-11-07T12:01:04  <Notmyhandle> Also, Half-Life: Decay has a hacked PC version (unofficial port). I don't see why we can't cover that.
2009-11-07T12:01:10  <najzere> Look at the WoW page.
2009-11-07T12:01:16  <najzere> Hugely popular and a disgraceful guide.
2009-11-07T12:01:22  <Prod> wow has a better wiki out there
2009-11-07T12:01:28  <Prod> we were late to the game
2009-11-07T12:01:28  <Notmyhandle> Which we should be linking to
2009-11-07T12:01:31  <najzere> SW isn't a magazine that people can flip through to see us as a whole.
2009-11-07T12:01:33  <Procyon> That's because MMO players basically go to MMO specific wikis
2009-11-07T12:01:36  <Prod> (Notmyhandle): stay on topic ;)
2009-11-07T12:01:58  <najzere> A well written guide about something no ones ever heard of can't hurt us.
2009-11-07T12:02:01  <Procyon> What I wouldn't have given to get FFXIcyclopedia when they jumped to wikia
2009-11-07T12:02:07  <Notmyhandle> Maybe we should cut MMO's out of our scope too
2009-11-07T12:02:12  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T12:02:17  <najzere> Bye MapleStory!
2009-11-07T12:02:23  <Procyon> NMH: If we lose Maple Story, we lose over a 1/3 of our traffic.
2009-11-07T12:02:33  <Notmyhandle> I'm just saying, it doesn't make sense when we can't competew
2009-11-07T12:02:34  <Procyon> We need to encourage new MMO players to start their guides here.
2009-11-07T12:02:39  <najzere> Listen to us: "let's cut this out"
2009-11-07T12:02:40  <Notmyhandle> We got lucky with MapleStory
2009-11-07T12:02:51  <najzere> How about "let's let editors edit"
2009-11-07T12:03:19  <Notmyhandle> Along that train of thought
2009-11-07T12:03:26  <Notmyhandle> We could have an inclusive policy
2009-11-07T12:03:35  <Notmyhandle> Which, we basically already have
2009-11-07T12:03:57  <Notmyhandle> The only games we've ever excluded weren't games at all
2009-11-07T12:04:24  <Notmyhandle> Remember that moon base game? I think it was played on a forum
2009-11-07T12:04:49  <Notmyhandle> But I can't remember any others that we've had to remove or deny
2009-11-07T12:04:54  <Rocky> What about the developers making a guide to get publicity for their game, (e.g Dreams of Deception)?
2009-11-07T12:05:02  <Notmyhandle> Who cares?
2009-11-07T12:05:04  <Prod> i don't think we're against publicity
2009-11-07T12:05:07  <Notmyhandle> If the game is never made, remove it
2009-11-07T12:05:14  <Notmyhandle> If the game is made, then have the guide
2009-11-07T12:05:20  <najzere> As long as they're not spamming external links.
2009-11-07T12:05:23  <Notmyhandle> Right
2009-11-07T12:05:23  <Prod> as long as the guide satisfies our requirements, it could be a full ad
2009-11-07T12:05:38  <Notmyhandle> But that's not a scope issue, and we have policies that define how we take action against that.
2009-11-07T12:05:39  <Prod> and follows the rest of theg uideline
2009-11-07T12:05:40  <Prod> s
2009-11-07T12:05:49  <Prod> if we could get game companies to edit their own guides, that woudl be great
2009-11-07T12:05:55  <Notmyhandle> The thing is, we're so small, advertisement would only help us.
2009-11-07T12:06:23  <Notmyhandle> It's not like we have guides for guide websites.
2009-11-07T12:06:36  <Notmyhandle> We're not sending people anywhere we don't want them to go.
2009-11-07T12:06:59  *** najzere is now known as naj-away
2009-11-07T12:07:09  <Prod> we want to send people where they need to go, without relying on our competitors (as much as possible)
2009-11-07T12:07:12  <Procyon> Well, now I'm uncertain as to how productive this discussion will be.
2009-11-07T12:07:36  <Notmyhandle> Extremely productive.
2009-11-07T12:07:46  <Prod> i still want to kill off all rom hacks :)
2009-11-07T12:07:55  <Notmyhandle> Why?
2009-11-07T12:08:07  <Prod> because we're competing with the big boys
2009-11-07T12:08:10  <Notmyhandle> Why not be the first rom-hack inclusive guide website?
2009-11-07T12:08:13  <Notmyhandle> We can be bigger than the big boys
2009-11-07T12:08:31  *** Arrow has joined #SW-Meeting
2009-11-07T12:08:37  <Prod> we're not trying to be bigger, we're trying to be better
2009-11-07T12:08:53  <Notmyhandle> There's not really a reason to include or exclude the guides.
2009-11-07T12:08:57  <Arrow> Sorry for being late, I was out eating for my birthday.
2009-11-07T12:09:00  <Prod> things like the completion lists are going to become a mess if we include everything
2009-11-07T12:09:01  <Procyon> To bolster that argument, it doesn't cost us anything to host those guides.
2009-11-07T12:09:08  <Procyon> Arrow: Mine's tomorrow ^_^
2009-11-07T12:09:09  <Notmyhandle> It comes down to what audience we want to attract and how many guides we want.
2009-11-07T12:09:12  <Procyon> Arrow; Happy birthday!@
2009-11-07T12:09:17  <Prod> it costs us people
2009-11-07T12:09:21  <Prod> our sysops have limited time
2009-11-07T12:09:25  <Prod> our editors have limited time
2009-11-07T12:09:26  <Arrow> My birthday was yesterday, actually. Thanks and happy birthday to you, Proc
2009-11-07T12:09:32  <Procyon> Thanks!  ^_^
2009-11-07T12:09:35  <Prod> i'd rather they worked on real guides that more people are interested in
2009-11-07T12:09:43  <Notmyhandle> Prod: our editors leave because we don't let them do what they want, and our editors leave because we let people do what they want.
2009-11-07T12:09:46  <Prod> than these guides which get 10s of hits per day
2009-11-07T12:09:53  <Procyon> Prod: But they won't work on anything other than what they're interested in working on.
2009-11-07T12:10:00  <Notmyhandle> Exactly
2009-11-07T12:10:11  <Prod> bigger the audience a game has, more people are interested in it
2009-11-07T12:10:20  <Procyon> At least not until we finally establish a bounty system which we've been talking about for a year...
2009-11-07T12:10:30  <Notmyhandle> That would change everything
2009-11-07T12:11:03  <Prod> things like the completion lists
2009-11-07T12:11:07  <Prod> if we included all the rom hacks
2009-11-07T12:11:12  <Prod> they'd balloon like crazy
2009-11-07T12:11:28  <Procyon> I don't feel like we need to have completion lists for ROM Hacks.
2009-11-07T12:11:33  <Prod> but then it would start filling other categories with games people haven't heard of
2009-11-07T12:11:41  <Prod> and most people can't use without emulators
2009-11-07T12:11:44  <Procyon> We have completion lists for official releases because people want to know about that.
2009-11-07T12:12:00  <Prod> and people don't want to know about rom hacks (careful trick question)
2009-11-07T12:12:04  <Procyon> And we stub crap like Nintendo Golf because it came out...
2009-11-07T12:12:16  <Notmyhandle> Procyon: we would if we officially included them
2009-11-07T12:12:20  <Procyon> Prod: We don't have to be a resource for that information.
2009-11-07T12:12:22  <Notmyhandle> Prod: that's just one category
2009-11-07T12:12:26  <Notmyhandle> I.e. 1 console
2009-11-07T12:12:27  <Procyon> NMH: That's impossible to track.
2009-11-07T12:12:29  <Prod> exactly
2009-11-07T12:12:39  <Procyon> One thing about ROM Hacks
2009-11-07T12:12:46  <Notmyhandle> How is it impossible to track?
2009-11-07T12:12:49  <Notmyhandle> There's only so many releases
2009-11-07T12:12:53  <Procyon> is that the public will be the arbitor of notability.
2009-11-07T12:13:10  <Procyon> If a hack is crappy,
2009-11-07T12:13:18  <Procyon> they are not likely to be inspired to write about it.
2009-11-07T12:13:31  <Procyon> (Except for the author who probably thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.)
2009-11-07T12:13:44  <Notmyhandle> same with a crappy official game
2009-11-07T12:13:59  <Notmyhandle> Like Incantation
2009-11-07T12:14:05  *** naj-away is now known as najzere
2009-11-07T12:14:23  <Procyon> ok,
2009-11-07T12:14:28  <Procyon> let's come back to ROM Hacks in the end.
2009-11-07T12:14:29  <najzere> Let's be honest.
2009-11-07T12:14:35  <najzere> We're NOT competing with the big boys.
2009-11-07T12:14:43  <Procyon> Why not?
2009-11-07T12:14:44  <najzere> We're nowhere near them.
2009-11-07T12:14:52  <Notmyhandle> We're way down the chain
2009-11-07T12:14:54  <najzere> Because we haven't built a user base yet.
2009-11-07T12:14:58  <Procyon> Who do you mean by them specifically?  GFs?
2009-11-07T12:15:02  <najzere> Which is what we should be focusing on.
2009-11-07T12:15:08  <najzere> I mean do a search on any game name in google.
2009-11-07T12:15:09  <Notmyhandle> Any guide site in the top 1,000
2009-11-07T12:15:13  <najzere> We're on page four and five.
2009-11-07T12:15:23  <Procyon> Not true...
2009-11-07T12:15:26  <Procyon> Not all the time.
2009-11-07T12:15:41  <Procyon> And if you add Walkthrough to the search it helps considerably.
2009-11-07T12:15:51  <najzere> That's another thing...
2009-11-07T12:15:52  <Notmyhandle> actually
2009-11-07T12:15:57  <Notmyhandle> If you search for Morrowind Strategy
2009-11-07T12:15:59  <Prod> (najzere): our goal is to compete with them, just because we aren't doing the best right now, doesn't mean we should try
2009-11-07T12:16:00  <najzere> I don't think empty walkthrough pages are helping us any.
2009-11-07T12:16:01  <Notmyhandle> we're the first on the second page
2009-11-07T12:16:10  <najzere> We need to be realistic before that, Prod.
2009-11-07T12:16:28  <najzere> You can't just start out competing because you feel like it.
2009-11-07T12:16:33  <Prod> course you can
2009-11-07T12:16:37  <Prod> that's how it works
2009-11-07T12:16:38  <Procyon> I agree with Prod.
2009-11-07T12:16:41  <Notmyhandle> Agreed
2009-11-07T12:16:45  <najzere> We should have better content and better means to edit.
2009-11-07T12:16:47  <najzere> We need something they don't have.
2009-11-07T12:16:50  <Procyon> We may not be succeeding to the degree we would like,
2009-11-07T12:16:54  <Procyon> but we're still actively doing it.
2009-11-07T12:16:55  <Notmyhandle> We have MediaWiki
2009-11-07T12:17:03  <Prod> lets not get too far off topic
2009-11-07T12:17:04  <Prod> to this point
2009-11-07T12:17:05  <najzere> We have different ideas of succeeding.
2009-11-07T12:17:06  <Prod> we are working on it
2009-11-07T12:17:12  <najzere> Mine don't depend on comparing us to other sites.
2009-11-07T12:17:13  <Prod> but if we give up now
2009-11-07T12:17:15  <Prod> there's no point
2009-11-07T12:17:27  <najzere> How is it giving up to make your site as good as it can be?
2009-11-07T12:17:33  <Procyon> Naj: Would you like to propose them at the next meetin?
2009-11-07T12:17:40  <najzere> Propose what?
2009-11-07T12:17:55  <Procyon> your ideas for success?
2009-11-07T12:18:09  <Prod> he meant he has a different definition
2009-11-07T12:18:13  <najzere> They're my ideas, I don't need them voted on.
2009-11-07T12:18:18  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T12:18:23  <najzere> I will always judge SW on my own ideals.
2009-11-07T12:18:24  <Procyon> I'd still like to understand them.
2009-11-07T12:18:40  <najzere> Well it starts by not focusing on driving people to our empty site.
2009-11-07T12:18:47  <Prod> lol
2009-11-07T12:18:51  <Prod> our site isn't empty
2009-11-07T12:18:52  <najzere> But fixing and expanding what we have.
2009-11-07T12:18:55  <Prod> we have MapleStory!!!
2009-11-07T12:18:57  <Notmyhandle> Prod you know what he means
2009-11-07T12:18:59  <Procyon> (I'm trying to add content to it :( )
2009-11-07T12:19:05  <najzere> Has anyone been to GamerWiki?
2009-11-07T12:19:10  <najzere> That site is ridiculous.
2009-11-07T12:19:16  <Notmyhandle> What is it
2009-11-07T12:19:18  <najzere> They have 15,000 more articles than us and they're all empty.
2009-11-07T12:19:30  <Notmyhandle> WAit isn't that the site where some guys jacked our images? lol
2009-11-07T12:19:33  <najzere> Yet they boast that they're high up on the list of MW sites.
2009-11-07T12:19:38  <Notmyhandle> The fighting move icons
2009-11-07T12:19:39  <Prod> (najzere): we used to discuss this as signal to noise
2009-11-07T12:19:44  <Prod> to me, rom hacks are noise
2009-11-07T12:19:57  <najzere> A ROM hack guide at completion stage 4?
2009-11-07T12:20:04  <Prod> yes
2009-11-07T12:20:05  <najzere> That's an alien thought to me.
2009-11-07T12:20:10  <Procyon> NMH: No, Shoryuken.com's wiki jacked our icons.
2009-11-07T12:20:15  <Notmyhandle> ah
2009-11-07T12:20:35  <Arrow> Should we call them on it?
2009-11-07T12:20:42  <Prod> they link back to us
2009-11-07T12:21:16  <Arrow> What about in terms of license and whatnot?
2009-11-07T12:21:17  <Prod> (najzere): if there was decent scope limits on it, I may be convinced to allow rom hacks in
2009-11-07T12:21:20  <Prod> otherwise, none of them
2009-11-07T12:21:46  <najzere> Vague scope policy just leads to a bunch of these discussions.
2009-11-07T12:21:49  <najzere> It has to be all or none.
2009-11-07T12:21:51  <Deviance> Rom hacks should be ok
2009-11-07T12:21:54  <Procyon> Prod: I agree with Naj that having exclusive content such as guides for notably good hacks would be a good draw of users.
2009-11-07T12:21:55  <Notmyhandle> I have no problem with excluding anything
2009-11-07T12:21:56  <Deviance> If it's just a patch
2009-11-07T12:22:01  <Notmyhandle> We just need to stand strong on why we are doing it
2009-11-07T12:22:04  <Prod> (najzere): i'm saying none
2009-11-07T12:22:11  <najzere> I know that. Heh.
2009-11-07T12:22:25  <najzere> But you haven't said what it hurts to have them.
2009-11-07T12:22:30  <Procyon> OK, let's take a quick vote:
2009-11-07T12:22:30  <najzere> Admin time?
2009-11-07T12:22:33  <Notmyhandle> Wait
2009-11-07T12:22:36  <Notmyhandle> Proc wait
2009-11-07T12:22:36  <najzere> We're here to fix users' edits.
2009-11-07T12:22:43  <Procyon> Just really quick, not to close the conversation,
2009-11-07T12:22:46  <Procyon> but just to get a feel.
2009-11-07T12:22:47  <najzere> Why do we care WHAT they're editing?
2009-11-07T12:22:47  <Notmyhandle> Najzere's question is important
2009-11-07T12:22:57  <Procyon> You can say, All, None, or Some.
2009-11-07T12:22:59  <najzere> We're here for editors, not guides.
2009-11-07T12:23:06  <najzere> All
2009-11-07T12:23:11  <Prod> none
2009-11-07T12:23:18  <Notmyhandle> All > None
2009-11-07T12:23:20  <Procyon> Some
2009-11-07T12:23:28  <Notmyhandle> Some > None
2009-11-07T12:23:37  * Procyon pokes Skiz
2009-11-07T12:23:40  <Rocky> All
2009-11-07T12:24:00  <Procyon> NMH: What's your personal choice though?
2009-11-07T12:24:14  <Arrow> What's the vote on again? ROM hacks?
2009-11-07T12:24:18  <Prod> yes
2009-11-07T12:24:19  <najzere> I feel like this whole discussion is dangerous, because we few people are deciding what a bunch of others are ALLOWED to put on the site.
2009-11-07T12:24:21  <najzere> Instead of them choosing.
2009-11-07T12:24:26  <Prod> all, none or some
2009-11-07T12:24:27  <najzere> Supposedly we're an open project.
2009-11-07T12:24:31  <Prod> (najzere): we set the rules
2009-11-07T12:24:36  <Prod> no rules = mess
2009-11-07T12:24:47  <najzere> So let's set rules as representatives then.
2009-11-07T12:24:56  <Procyon> Naj: FOr example,
2009-11-07T12:24:57  <najzere> No individuals.
2009-11-07T12:25:01  <najzere> Not*
2009-11-07T12:25:26  <Procyon> Naj: you know that game that came out in Germany about killing Jews?  I certainly wouldn't want a guide for that appearing on SW.
2009-11-07T12:25:28  <najzere> I personally have no interest in ever creating a ROM hack guide or indie game guide or whatever.
2009-11-07T12:25:57  <najzere> Okay, well offensive to readers is a little more concrete, but it's still an opinion.
2009-11-07T12:26:02  <Notmyhandle> Procyon: but you can kill Nazi's? That's offensive too
2009-11-07T12:26:15  <najzere> You don't have to read the guid.e
2009-11-07T12:26:25  <Notmyhandle> Just like you don't have to look at tentacle rape
2009-11-07T12:26:31  <Procyon> NMH: You mean Wolfenstein?
2009-11-07T12:26:34  <Notmyhandle> Indeed
2009-11-07T12:26:34  <najzere> Actually I DO...:(
2009-11-07T12:26:55  <Procyon> I guess it's a question of morality.
2009-11-07T12:26:59  <najzere> There's that Columbine massacre game too.
2009-11-07T12:27:11  <Procyon> Right, I wouldn't want to see a guide for that either.
2009-11-07T12:27:11  <najzere> Yeah, I'd rather we not be arbiter's of morality either.
2009-11-07T12:27:15  <Notmyhandle> And the JFK shooter, did that one ever come out?
2009-11-07T12:27:16  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T12:27:20  <Prod> i agree with najzere on that one
2009-11-07T12:27:29  <Prod> we don't censor
2009-11-07T12:27:35  <Procyon> Wow, we really all do feel differently about things :)
2009-11-07T12:27:35  <najzere> WP has articles on KKK, hitler, etc.
2009-11-07T12:27:44  <Procyon> I would expect WP to.
2009-11-07T12:27:51  <Procyon> They're factual.
2009-11-07T12:27:54  <Notmyhandle> So are we
2009-11-07T12:27:57  <najzere> Well, I'm just saying, we should come up with our inclusion rules in a vacuum.
2009-11-07T12:28:00  <Arrow> Remember our audience
2009-11-07T12:28:07  <Arrow> Wikipedia attracts researchers, we're just gamers
2009-11-07T12:28:09  <najzere> Don't think of specific cases, but guidelines as a whole.
2009-11-07T12:28:12  <Arrow> Far more informal
2009-11-07T12:28:19  <najzere> You'll get the good and bad with any policy.
2009-11-07T12:28:29  <Procyon> Arrow: How do you feel that should influence our policies?
2009-11-07T12:28:38  <Prod> the point is to pick a line where you maximize good and minimize bad
2009-11-07T12:28:50  <Notmyhandle> I don't see how excluding anything is good
2009-11-07T12:28:52  <Procyon> Naj: So there's no game out there that you feel SW should exclude?  Not one?
2009-11-07T12:28:58  <najzere> I'm not hearing a lot of minimizing bad from tightening scope.
2009-11-07T12:29:01  <Arrow> I think the major question here revolves around games that have an emphasis in politics, religion, or recent events
2009-11-07T12:29:04  <najzere> Procyon: nope.
2009-11-07T12:29:07  <Notmyhandle> Those excluded guides are just more views waiting to happen
2009-11-07T12:29:16  <Arrow> Maybe we should consider those three categories and break it down from there.
2009-11-07T12:29:18  <najzere> I would support inclusion of "Kill Najzere Slowly".
2009-11-07T12:29:26  <Procyon> LMAO
2009-11-07T12:29:39  <najzere> OMG no
2009-11-07T12:29:52  <najzere> That's exactly what we SHOULDN'T be thinking of.
2009-11-07T12:30:10  <najzere> Now you're talking like RobJ and you want to take a moral stance on these guides.
2009-11-07T12:30:26  <Prod> i'd support kill naj slowly
2009-11-07T12:30:32  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T12:30:33  <Prod> as long as it was released by an official company :)
2009-11-07T12:30:36  <Procyon> One possibility is that we branch SW.
2009-11-07T12:30:47  <Procyon> Official games on SW, unofficial games on SW2
2009-11-07T12:31:09  <najzere> We're not exactly superb at getting our second wikis up and running.
2009-11-07T12:31:14  <Notmyhandle> Possible... but unnecessary
2009-11-07T12:31:30  <Notmyhandle> And way more work standardizing a second wiki as well
2009-11-07T12:31:31  <Procyon> ouch >_<;
2009-11-07T12:31:34  <najzere> Let's flag games on these lines and set whether to view them in Preferences.
2009-11-07T12:31:41  <Prod> lol
2009-11-07T12:31:45  <Prod> you can code the extension :P
2009-11-07T12:31:52  <najzere> Not it!
2009-11-07T12:32:09  * Notmyhandle doesn't look at Skizzerz
2009-11-07T12:32:20  <najzere> Anyway, please tell me how having non-notable games hurts the wiki.
2009-11-07T12:32:41  <Notmyhandle> I also don't understand an exclusionary policy
2009-11-07T12:32:53  * Procyon stares at the ground...
2009-11-07T12:32:56  <najzere> Wait.
2009-11-07T12:32:59  <Prod> it distracts focus
2009-11-07T12:33:02  <najzere> Let's continue this at the next meeting.
2009-11-07T12:33:17  <Notmyhandle> Prod: who's focus
2009-11-07T12:33:20  <Prod> the site
2009-11-07T12:33:22  <Procyon> See, I get Prod's argument...
2009-11-07T12:33:30  <najzere> Yeah, I'd argue that the site's focus is the editors' focus.
2009-11-07T12:33:37  <Procyon> It's just hard to dictate focus on anyone.
2009-11-07T12:33:38  <najzere> We don't set it.
2009-11-07T12:33:44  <Notmyhandle> Exactly proc
2009-11-07T12:33:45  <Procyon> Naj:
2009-11-07T12:33:50  <Procyon> From Prod's point of view,
2009-11-07T12:34:01  <Procyon> he would prefer to encourage editors t owork on guides that are going to attract readers.
2009-11-07T12:34:06  <Procyon> Non-notable games don't do that.
2009-11-07T12:34:12  <najzere> I don't think it works like that.
2009-11-07T12:34:18  <najzere> There's no hobson's choice here.
2009-11-07T12:34:21  <Procyon> Official AAA title games that wikicheats works on does that.
2009-11-07T12:34:23  <Notmyhandle> I belive new editors are not attracted to any game they aren't playing
2009-11-07T12:34:24  <najzere> If you cant' edit what you want you just leave.
2009-11-07T12:34:50  <Procyon> And that is the right counter argument to Pro'ds rgument.
2009-11-07T12:34:58  <najzere> If we start out allowing everything...
2009-11-07T12:35:01  <najzere> And the site grows...
2009-11-07T12:35:09  <Notmyhandle> There's also this thing called "Knowledge"
2009-11-07T12:35:09  <najzere> We can have Milk project rewards for just notable games.
2009-11-07T12:35:12  <Prod> (najzere): so why don't we add in board games too?
2009-11-07T12:35:14  <Prod> and card games?
2009-11-07T12:35:15  <najzere> That will use incentive, not exclusion.
2009-11-07T12:35:18  <Notmyhandle> If people don't know what they're talking about, why would we encourage them to edit it?
2009-11-07T12:35:21  <Arrow> I have a question, about all these games - how high is the demand?
2009-11-07T12:35:22  <najzere> Prod: good point.
2009-11-07T12:35:22  <Notmyhandle> Prod: we want VIDEO games
2009-11-07T12:35:27  <najzere> We need a Prime Directive.
2009-11-07T12:35:30  <Notmyhandle> We have VIDEO monopoly
2009-11-07T12:35:33  <Prod> but then we're restricting scope
2009-11-07T12:35:33  <Arrow> Do people WANT to see a guide about that?
2009-11-07T12:35:37  <Prod> people want to edit what they want
2009-11-07T12:35:42  <Prod> i would love a guide about checkers
2009-11-07T12:35:51  <Procyon> Wikibooks has one.
2009-11-07T12:35:52  <Prod> i'd start it
2009-11-07T12:35:57  <najzere> Now you're talking.
2009-11-07T12:36:00  <Notmyhandle> I think restricting scope to a topic is different than excluding subgenres
2009-11-07T12:36:01  <Prod> but we can be better
2009-11-07T12:36:07  <Notmyhandle> Like having a wiki on books and then saying no text books
2009-11-07T12:36:10  <najzere> As you can see, scope can be arbitrarily open.
2009-11-07T12:36:14  <Prod> exactly
2009-11-07T12:36:17  <Prod> which is why you pick rules
2009-11-07T12:36:18  <Notmyhandle> Right
2009-11-07T12:36:20  <najzere> So we should start big and refine it down to where we're comfortable.
2009-11-07T12:36:37  <Procyon> A "video" game is pretty easy to define.
2009-11-07T12:36:37  <najzere> All in favor of restricting scope to games played on electronic devices?
2009-11-07T12:36:44  <Notmyhandle> Aye
2009-11-07T12:36:51  <Prod> i'm not including those things you get in cereal boxes
2009-11-07T12:36:57  <Notmyhandle> Awww
2009-11-07T12:36:58  <Procyon> Anything that requires controllers for input, a monitor for output, and a processor to execute.
2009-11-07T12:36:59  <najzere> Why not?
2009-11-07T12:37:07  <Notmyhandle> They take strategy
2009-11-07T12:37:08  <Notmyhandle> lol
2009-11-07T12:37:15  <najzere> After we decide to stick to electronic games, we can narrow from there.
2009-11-07T12:37:16  <Rocky> what if they're demos of real games?
2009-11-07T12:37:19  <Procyon> That's another important distinction...
2009-11-07T12:37:22  <Notmyhandle> CHEX QUEST
2009-11-07T12:37:23  <najzere> Eventually we'll get to where we're comfortable.
2009-11-07T12:37:26  <Procyon> we don't currently host guides for Game & Watch games.
2009-11-07T12:37:45  <Procyon> (I want to include them on GameWiki.com)
2009-11-07T12:37:46  <Prod> though we do galleries i believe
2009-11-07T12:38:04  <Notmyhandle> And we say we have the digital versions of them
2009-11-07T12:38:07  <najzere> Anyone in favor of hosting single-purpose handheld games?
2009-11-07T12:38:18  <Prod> ie. mctoys
2009-11-07T12:38:26  <Procyon> NMH: They can be included into the G&W Gallery games for the GBC an GBA
2009-11-07T12:38:27  <Prod> er. mcvideo games
2009-11-07T12:38:28  <najzere> Or Tiger's huge line.
2009-11-07T12:38:38  <najzere> I'm against them.
2009-11-07T12:38:46  <najzere> Due to depth.
2009-11-07T12:38:47  <Procyon> I'm against them for SW, and for them for GW
2009-11-07T12:39:03  <Procyon> Actually,
2009-11-07T12:39:06  <Notmyhandle> I don't care. I don't play them.
2009-11-07T12:39:09  <najzere> Haha
2009-11-07T12:39:12  <najzere> But you edit the wiki!
2009-11-07T12:39:18  <Notmyhandle> So I can help
2009-11-07T12:39:21  <Notmyhandle> But I won't know anything
2009-11-07T12:39:23  <Procyon> they will be included when I start a guide for G&W Gallery 1 through 4 anyway/
2009-11-07T12:39:36  <najzere> So where are we at anyway?
2009-11-07T12:39:44  <Procyon> In like 20 years from now...
2009-11-07T12:39:45  <najzere> We've been in meeting for 1:45.
2009-11-07T12:39:48  <Arrow> I have a feeling one of the underlying issues is, "What is gaming?" A lot of these tiny games can technically fall under it, especially with today's casual gaming crowd
2009-11-07T12:39:54  <Procyon> Yeah, we should wrap up.
2009-11-07T12:39:57  <Notmyhandle> Anyone want to get take out?
2009-11-07T12:39:59  <Procyon> Let's do tgus,.
2009-11-07T12:40:05  <Procyon> NMH: LOL
2009-11-07T12:40:08  <Procyon> Let's do this:
2009-11-07T12:40:17  <najzere> I have a bunch of small things if everyone's up for it.
2009-11-07T12:40:29  <Procyon> Can we compile a list of guides that we currently hst that could be considered questionable?
2009-11-07T12:40:45  <Notmyhandle> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Category:ROM_hacks
2009-11-07T12:40:51  <najzere> I have been through all our completion stage 0 and 1 guides, and I can say that there are a bunch.
2009-11-07T12:41:24  <Procyon> OK,
2009-11-07T12:41:29  <Procyon> here's what I'd like to do,
2009-11-07T12:41:39  <Procyon> Just to get a feel for where everybody is,
2009-11-07T12:41:51  <Procyon> Let's do a quick vote on the remaining categories.
2009-11-07T12:42:01  <Procyon> Nothing to decide, just your personal feeling.
2009-11-07T12:42:02  <Notmyhandle> They all go together
2009-11-07T12:42:11  <Procyon> NMH: again, I disagree,
2009-11-07T12:42:12  <najzere> Let's do it anyway.
2009-11-07T12:42:16  <Procyon> but we're not deciding on anything.
2009-11-07T12:42:21  <Procyon> I just want to see how people feel.
2009-11-07T12:42:37  <Procyon> Indie Games: All or None.
2009-11-07T12:42:39  <Procyon> All
2009-11-07T12:42:42  <najzere> All
2009-11-07T12:42:45  <Rocky> All
2009-11-07T12:42:46  <Notmyhandle> All
2009-11-07T12:43:04  <Procyon> (For the record, this means entirely exclusively original content, no copyrighted stuff)
2009-11-07T12:43:07  <Procyon> Prod?
2009-11-07T12:43:08  <Prod> All (with some kind of proper definiton fo indie)
2009-11-07T12:43:13  <Procyon> Fair enough.
2009-11-07T12:43:26  <najzere> LOL@Prod's conditions.
2009-11-07T12:43:27  <Arrow> I'd say go for it.
2009-11-07T12:43:27  <Procyon> Fan games like SM63 and Pokemon Universe
2009-11-07T12:43:33  <najzere> All
2009-11-07T12:43:37  <Procyon> None
2009-11-07T12:43:40  <Prod> none
2009-11-07T12:43:55  <Procyon> Rocky and NMH?
2009-11-07T12:43:56  <Arrow> Depends on demand, I think.
2009-11-07T12:44:07  <Procyon> Arrow: Your personal feelings.
2009-11-07T12:44:07  <Rocky> All (as long as they have depth)
2009-11-07T12:44:13  <Notmyhandle> All
2009-11-07T12:44:28  <Procyon> Arrow?
2009-11-07T12:44:38  <Prod> double or nothing arrow :)
2009-11-07T12:44:41  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T12:44:42  <Arrow> I don't know, it'd depend on whether people want one >.>
2009-11-07T12:44:48  <najzere> Think he wasn't "some".
2009-11-07T12:44:50  <najzere> wants*
2009-11-07T12:44:51  <Procyon> Then you're saying all :)
2009-11-07T12:44:57  <Prod> i'd read that as none :P
2009-11-07T12:44:57  <Procyon> OK,
2009-11-07T12:44:59  <Arrow> Do people want a guide for these?
2009-11-07T12:45:08  <najzere> If we have to delete it, then yes.
2009-11-07T12:45:19  <Procyon> Arrow: Ask it the way naj would: Do people want to edit a guide for them?
2009-11-07T12:45:26  <Prod> (Arrow): http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Super_Mario_63
2009-11-07T12:45:46  <Arrow> Doesn't look popular enough for me, so I would say no there.
2009-11-07T12:45:49  <Procyon> OK, we'll let Arrow sit on that one for a whlie.
2009-11-07T12:45:52  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T12:45:57  <Procyon> Flash games, without regard to notabliity:
2009-11-07T12:45:59  <Procyon> None
2009-11-07T12:46:00  <najzere> All
2009-11-07T12:46:02  <Prod> none
2009-11-07T12:46:12  <Procyon> lol, I think I see where this is going.
2009-11-07T12:46:15  <Prod> though, i wouldn't be totally against flash sites
2009-11-07T12:46:16  <Notmyhandle> Some
2009-11-07T12:46:22  <Rhonlore> I dont think any "unauthorized" games should be included
2009-11-07T12:46:23  <Notmyhandle> Half of the flash games I play don't require guides
2009-11-07T12:46:24  <Prod> as long as they only host originals
2009-11-07T12:46:31  <Rocky> Some (depends on depth again)
2009-11-07T12:46:34  <najzere> Authorized by who?
2009-11-07T12:46:35  <Prod> ie. i'd support neopets
2009-11-07T12:46:37  <Arrow> I'm following NMH
2009-11-07T12:46:37  <Prod> but not armorgames
2009-11-07T12:46:42  <Prod> (i think)
2009-11-07T12:46:44  <Arrow> I'd avoid Neopets personally
2009-11-07T12:46:49  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T12:46:51  <najzere> Yeah fuck Neopets.
2009-11-07T12:46:54  <Prod> LOL
2009-11-07T12:46:55  <Notmyhandle> Agreed
2009-11-07T12:46:56  <Procyon> hahaha
2009-11-07T12:46:56  <najzere> The guide I"m for, however.
2009-11-07T12:46:57  <Arrow> You'd need a whole wiki for that
2009-11-07T12:46:58  <Rocky> lol
2009-11-07T12:47:06  <Notmyhandle> Neopets is an MMO
2009-11-07T12:47:09  <Notmyhandle> its expansive
2009-11-07T12:47:19  <Prod> and we do get traffic to it
2009-11-07T12:47:22  <Procyon> OK, I see how this is going, and I'm coming to a better understanding of the situation.
2009-11-07T12:47:23  <Prod> mostly "neopets freebies"
2009-11-07T12:47:23  <Notmyhandle> lol
2009-11-07T12:47:33  <Procyon> The last one is Emulation guides, like our MAME guide.
2009-11-07T12:47:36  <najzere> All
2009-11-07T12:47:38  <Procyon> I'm for all.
2009-11-07T12:47:41  <Rocky> All
2009-11-07T12:47:43  <Procyon> Wait,
2009-11-07T12:47:45  <Procyon> I take that back.
2009-11-07T12:48:02  <Procyon> I'm for some; under the condition that the system being emulated is no longer commercially available.
2009-11-07T12:48:11  * Prod is with Procyon
2009-11-07T12:48:14  <Procyon> That would include Dreamcast emulators, but not PS2 emus.
2009-11-07T12:48:16  <Arrow> I'll go that way too
2009-11-07T12:48:22  <Notmyhandle> Again, morals at play
2009-11-07T12:48:24  <Prod> dreamcast is still around
2009-11-07T12:48:26  <Rhonlore> What about Playstation emulators?
2009-11-07T12:48:28  <Prod> it's not morals
2009-11-07T12:48:33  <Procyon> Not commercially.
2009-11-07T12:48:35  <Rocky> eugh... I take that back
2009-11-07T12:48:36  <najzere> For some it is.
2009-11-07T12:48:37  <Prod> it's practicallity
2009-11-07T12:48:46  <Procyon> Naj: Where?
2009-11-07T12:48:47  <Notmyhandle> Our guides are legally neutral
2009-11-07T12:48:51  <Notmyhandle> We can cover whatever we want
2009-11-07T12:48:52  <najzere> You.
2009-11-07T12:49:08  <Procyon> Naj: Me?
2009-11-07T12:49:12  <Prod> huh?
2009-11-07T12:49:14  <najzere> What was the question?
2009-11-07T12:49:17  <Procyon> LOL
2009-11-07T12:49:19  <Notmyhandle> Where am I.
2009-11-07T12:49:24  <Procyon> Where is the DC commercially available?
2009-11-07T12:49:25  <Rhonlore> Who are you people?
2009-11-07T12:49:27  <najzere> North Dakota?
2009-11-07T12:49:30  <Notmyhandle> Ebay
2009-11-07T12:49:32  <Procyon> Really? :o
2009-11-07T12:49:39  <Procyon> ebay is not commercial.
2009-11-07T12:49:42  <Rhonlore> Notmyhandle: That argument can be made for any system :p
2009-11-07T12:49:44  <Notmyhandle> They make money off of it
2009-11-07T12:49:45  <najzere> Oh, I mean SOME people are making a moral decision.
2009-11-07T12:49:49  <Procyon> Sega is not.
2009-11-07T12:50:02  <Procyon> NMH: Ebay is making money off of Ataris too.
2009-11-07T12:50:04  <Prod> if it's still reasonably available in the 2nd hand market
2009-11-07T12:50:06  <Prod> it's fine
2009-11-07T12:50:14  <Notmyhandle> It's because they are no longer licensed
2009-11-07T12:50:16  <Prod> but some of the really old stuff is not available at all
2009-11-07T12:50:17  <najzere> No, it has to be all or none.
2009-11-07T12:50:23  <najzere> To avoid these debates.
2009-11-07T12:50:24  <Prod> and the media that holds the game is probably dead
2009-11-07T12:50:30  <Prod> essentially MAME is it
2009-11-07T12:50:31  <Prod> the rest is none
2009-11-07T12:50:51  <Procyon> That's no good :(
2009-11-07T12:50:57  <Rhonlore> I don't have any issues explaining what the emulators are and what they do
2009-11-07T12:51:02  <najzere> Wait, are we talking about guides for emulators?
2009-11-07T12:51:03  <Rhonlore> Or how to get them set up.
2009-11-07T12:51:05  <Procyon> You know what's funny, there's emuwiki,
2009-11-07T12:51:06  <najzere> Or emulator categories?
2009-11-07T12:51:15  <Procyon> guides for emulators.
2009-11-07T12:51:17  <Notmyhandle> Guides for emus
2009-11-07T12:51:18  <najzere> Oh.
2009-11-07T12:51:34  <najzere> Kind of out of our scope in the same way a lot things are.
2009-11-07T12:51:47  <najzere> Not for the same reasons as game guides though.
2009-11-07T12:52:09  <najzere> I'm for none then, as long as we can preserve the existing guides somewhere.
2009-11-07T12:52:17  <Prod> mame is the only one
2009-11-07T12:52:30  <najzere> I've personally used the MAME guide, and I like it.
2009-11-07T12:52:42  <Prod> i say mame is the only one we keep
2009-11-07T12:52:48  <Prod> everything else is none
2009-11-07T12:52:48  <najzere> Not sure what SW has to do with it though, since it's not a game.
2009-11-07T12:52:58  <najzere> How is MAME different?
2009-11-07T12:52:59  <Prod> neither are companies :P
2009-11-07T12:53:03  <Prod> it's a fringe
2009-11-07T12:53:10  <najzere> Well, we except ALL companies...
2009-11-07T12:53:22  <Prod> i don't even want to get into scope there :P
2009-11-07T12:53:26  <najzere> Haha.
2009-11-07T12:53:36  <Prod> we accept companies that our guides get categorized under
2009-11-07T12:53:37  <najzere> As RobJ would say "what does that have to do with beating a game?"
2009-11-07T12:53:43  <najzere> Yeah.
2009-11-07T12:54:05  <Procyon> Prod: So you don't see any value in hosting a guide on how to properly use, say, Stella (Atari 2600) or VGBA?
2009-11-07T12:54:24  <Prod> stella, perhaps, definately not vgba
2009-11-07T12:54:24  <Notmyhandle> I thought they still sold GBA games
2009-11-07T12:54:27  <najzere> I think all the system categories could have a basic use section.
2009-11-07T12:54:28  <Procyon> Or better yet,
2009-11-07T12:54:31  <Procyon> UAE
2009-11-07T12:54:40  <Procyon> (Commodore Amiga, which is fucken complicated to emulate)
2009-11-07T12:54:57  <Prod> but those are all much simpler to use t he emulator for
2009-11-07T12:55:03  <Prod> however
2009-11-07T12:55:07  <najzere> Oh I see what you're saying.
2009-11-07T12:55:08  <Prod> one change to the current mame guide
2009-11-07T12:55:17  <najzere> We don't currently categorize like that though.
2009-11-07T12:55:24  <najzere> Category:Emulators...no room for a guide.
2009-11-07T12:55:31  <najzere> But MAME we have, so a guide is okay.
2009-11-07T12:55:35  <najzere> Is that what you're saying?
2009-11-07T12:55:38  <najzere> I agree with that.
2009-11-07T12:55:56  <Prod> we need to get rid of the rom managers section from the mame guide
2009-11-07T12:55:57  <Procyon> I added a MAME category because the games it supports are only a subset of the Arcade category.
2009-11-07T12:56:00  <Prod> does not belong at all
2009-11-07T12:56:17  <Procyon> Whereas, VBA plays the entire set of GBA games.
2009-11-07T12:56:49  <Prod> two things for my agreement to keep mame guide
2009-11-07T12:56:54  <Procyon> OK, we officially hit the 2 hour mark.
2009-11-07T12:56:58  <Prod> it's useful and people are visiting it and getting us hits
2009-11-07T12:57:01  <najzere> WTG all
2009-11-07T12:57:06  <Prod> there's not a better one
2009-11-07T12:57:19  <Procyon> There isn't? :D
2009-11-07T12:57:26  <Prod> not that i know of
2009-11-07T12:57:31  <najzere> Me either.
2009-11-07T12:57:33  <Procyon> I did work pretty hard on it ^_^
2009-11-07T12:57:38  <Prod> if someone else were willing to host it, i'd mourn the loss of the page hits, but i wouldn't mind
2009-11-07T12:57:50  <Procyon> Yeah, I should talk to emuwiki about that.
2009-11-07T12:58:00  <najzere> It may be keeping our link on MAMEWorld.
2009-11-07T12:58:10  <najzere> Not sure how that came about.
2009-11-07T12:58:19  <Procyon> Probably me...?
2009-11-07T12:58:26  <najzere> You...don't know?
2009-11-07T12:58:37  <Procyon> It was a couple of years ago.
2009-11-07T12:58:41  <Prod> :P
2009-11-07T12:58:46  <najzere> You put the link on there?
2009-11-07T12:58:50  <Procyon> I finished the guide, and I'm pretty sure I posted the link to the forums.
2009-11-07T12:58:56  <najzere> Ah, cool.
2009-11-07T12:59:02  <Procyon> Wait, which link are you talking about specifically?
2009-11-07T12:59:08  <najzere> On the MAMEWorld front page.
2009-11-07T12:59:24  <Procyon> omg, I din't even know about that :O
2009-11-07T12:59:27  <najzere> haha.
2009-11-07T12:59:34  <najzere> I added it to our WP article the other day.
2009-11-07T12:59:45  <Procyon> That's awesome! :D
2009-11-07T12:59:56  <Procyon> Prod, did you know about that?
2009-11-07T13:00:02  <najzere> So I don't know what would happen if we got rid of the MAME guide.
2009-11-07T13:00:06  <Procyon> I mean, it's buried half way down the page, but that's a great link to have.
2009-11-07T13:00:09  <Prod> no
2009-11-07T13:00:09  <najzere> In regards to that link anyway.
2009-11-07T13:00:11  <Prod> just saw it
2009-11-07T13:00:12  <Prod> it's cool ;D
2009-11-07T13:00:19  <Procyon> OK, let's wrap this up,
2009-11-07T13:00:26  <Procyon> and save the rest of the discussion for next month.
2009-11-07T13:00:31  <najzere> Oof.
2009-11-07T13:00:53  <Procyon> If anyone still hanging around has any issues they want to address, the floor is open.
2009-11-07T13:01:10  <najzere> Compilation completion stages.
2009-11-07T13:01:14  <Prod> :D
2009-11-07T13:01:17  <Skizzerz> that's been discussed
2009-11-07T13:01:17  <najzere> Why are they dependent on the underlying guides?
2009-11-07T13:01:21  <najzere> Oh it has?
2009-11-07T13:01:21  <Skizzerz> and decided upon
2009-11-07T13:01:23  <Skizzerz> yes
2009-11-07T13:01:31  <Prod> what was decided?
2009-11-07T13:01:31  <najzere> Okay then.
2009-11-07T13:01:33  * Prod has forgotten
2009-11-07T13:01:47  <Prod> hehe
2009-11-07T13:01:51  <Procyon> I remember that we decided upon that...
2009-11-07T13:01:58  <Procyon> I don't know if I fully support the decision,
2009-11-07T13:01:58  <Skizzerz> that it would be pointless to mark a compilation as cs4 if none of the games were finished
2009-11-07T13:02:04  <najzere> I take it this was on the forums then.
2009-11-07T13:02:10  <Procyon> but I understand the argument behind it.
2009-11-07T13:02:12  <Skizzerz> It was either on forums or CI
2009-11-07T13:02:18  <Prod> so what is the policy?
2009-11-07T13:02:29  <Procyon> Skiz: it kind of depends on what you mean by completion.
2009-11-07T13:02:29  <najzere> Well, I was going to suggest taking the completion stage off at all.
2009-11-07T13:02:32  <Prod> (and i may suggest we revise it now)
2009-11-07T13:02:33  <Skizzerz> I think the current policy is basing it on the completion stage of the games it contains
2009-11-07T13:02:33  <najzere> Since it's not a guide.
2009-11-07T13:02:34  <Procyon> It can be argued either way.
2009-11-07T13:02:34  <Notmyhandle> compilation becomes CS4 when all games become CS4
2009-11-07T13:02:53  <najzere> Hard to track or bad information...
2009-11-07T13:02:54  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T13:02:55  <Notmyhandle> Compilation = lowest level CS of one of its guides
2009-11-07T13:03:06  <Prod> ok, apparently we have a lot of options here....
2009-11-07T13:03:09  <Prod> right now
2009-11-07T13:03:15  <najzere> Okay, well remember to update any compilations your guide is a part of..
2009-11-07T13:03:16  <Prod> i have a bot that can update cs's on compilations
2009-11-07T13:03:23  <Prod> i run it weekly
2009-11-07T13:03:28  <najzere> Well then that's cool.
2009-11-07T13:03:29  <Prod> the question is the rules it should follow
2009-11-07T13:03:35  <Prod> right now
2009-11-07T13:03:38  <Prod> it goes by average cs
2009-11-07T13:03:45  <Prod> non-existent guides = 0
2009-11-07T13:03:59  <najzere> It will never be technically accurate so who cares?
2009-11-07T13:04:18  <najzere> The compilation page will go from zero to four without looking any different.
2009-11-07T13:04:28  <Notmyhandle> I think Bottom line > Average for compilation CS
2009-11-07T13:04:36  <najzere> Okay.
2009-11-07T13:04:43  <najzere> Empty walkthrough pages: why keep them?
2009-11-07T13:04:49  <Prod> one sec
2009-11-07T13:04:50  <Prod> so
2009-11-07T13:04:55  <Procyon> Naj: Example?
2009-11-07T13:05:00  <najzere> All over the place.
2009-11-07T13:05:03  <Notmyhandle> Yeah
2009-11-07T13:05:04  <Prod> for cs, average or floor?
2009-11-07T13:05:08  <najzere> average
2009-11-07T13:05:09  <Prod> floor = lowest
2009-11-07T13:05:13  <Prod> average
2009-11-07T13:05:19  <Procyon> I'm in favor of average,
2009-11-07T13:05:25  <Notmyhandle> average requires more work
2009-11-07T13:05:28  <Prod> it's already done
2009-11-07T13:05:29  <Procyon> no,
2009-11-07T13:05:33  <Procyon> Prod botted it
2009-11-07T13:05:37  <Notmyhandle> fine
2009-11-07T13:05:46  <Notmyhandle> if its handled by a bot, its not mine to handle
2009-11-07T13:05:47  <Prod> and it only goes to 4 when all are 4
2009-11-07T13:05:54  <najzere> Cool.
2009-11-07T13:05:58  <Prod> objections?
2009-11-07T13:06:03  <Prod> 10 seconds...
2009-11-07T13:06:07  <Procyon> nay
2009-11-07T13:06:10  <najzere> Don't wait that long..
2009-11-07T13:06:11  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T13:06:15  <Prod> 10 seconds is up
2009-11-07T13:06:19  <Prod> so bot goes as it is
2009-11-07T13:06:19  <Notmyhandle> I think we agree
2009-11-07T13:06:20  <Prod> :)
2009-11-07T13:06:34  <Prod> (najzere): next was empty walkthroug hpages
2009-11-07T13:06:38  <najzere> Yes.
2009-11-07T13:06:45  <najzere> Empty pages look bad.
2009-11-07T13:06:52  <najzere> We don't need a surrogate toc.
2009-11-07T13:06:59  <Procyon> Naj: Gimme one example.
2009-11-07T13:07:01  <najzere> ToC is too easy to get to from anywhere in the guid.e
2009-11-07T13:07:05  <najzere> Proc: How?
2009-11-07T13:07:13  <najzere> There's no empty walkthrough category.
2009-11-07T13:07:17  <Procyon> Do you mean a WT page that has nothing but a header and a footer and nothing else, no content?
2009-11-07T13:07:20  <Notmyhandle> Minimal content? http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Torchlight/Walkthrough
2009-11-07T13:07:22  <najzere> Yes.
2009-11-07T13:07:24  <Prod> (Procyon): he's talking about guides where the /walkthrough page just has navs
2009-11-07T13:07:28  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T13:07:33  <Notmyhandle> That means its a stub
2009-11-07T13:07:34  <najzere> No, Torchlight WT is good.
2009-11-07T13:07:37  <najzere> o_O
2009-11-07T13:07:45  <Notmyhandle> Empty walkthrough page = work required
2009-11-07T13:07:46  <najzere> I mean literally empty.
2009-11-07T13:07:50  <najzere> Whitespace.
2009-11-07T13:07:52  <Procyon> If no one ever intends to edit the WT, it should redirect to the first WT subpage.
2009-11-07T13:07:53  <Prod> no image
2009-11-07T13:07:54  <Prod> no text
2009-11-07T13:07:55  <Prod> just naves
2009-11-07T13:07:57  <Prod> navs *
2009-11-07T13:07:59  <najzere> Redirect?
2009-11-07T13:08:01  <najzere> Wut
2009-11-07T13:08:02  <Notmyhandle> Yeah we're not saying its CS4 lol
2009-11-07T13:08:03  <Prod> no redirects
2009-11-07T13:08:12  <najzere> It should be a red link in the guide, so people know we need it.
2009-11-07T13:08:19  <Notmyhandle> I think that makes sense
2009-11-07T13:08:20  <Prod> my feeling is
2009-11-07T13:08:20  <Notmyhandle> lets do it
2009-11-07T13:08:23  <Procyon> But then where does the WT link in the header and CN go to?
2009-11-07T13:08:26  <Prod> if there is guide info in subpages
2009-11-07T13:08:28  <Prod> we have /WT
2009-11-07T13:08:32  <Notmyhandle> 2 different discussions here
2009-11-07T13:08:33  <Prod> otherwise delete it if it's just navs
2009-11-07T13:08:35  <najzere> To a red link for you to edit, like any other link on wikis.
2009-11-07T13:08:52  <Procyon> oh,
2009-11-07T13:08:56  <Procyon> I see.
2009-11-07T13:09:00  *** Baejung92 has joined #SW-Meeting
2009-11-07T13:09:01  <Procyon> Then I'm for deleting them.
2009-11-07T13:09:03  <najzere> What does having content in subpages have to do with it?
2009-11-07T13:09:04  <Procyon> Hey bae
2009-11-07T13:09:08  <Notmyhandle> Delete empty walkthrough pages
2009-11-07T13:09:09  <Prod> the secondary toc
2009-11-07T13:09:09  <Baejung92> hello
2009-11-07T13:09:11  <Prod> yes it's available
2009-11-07T13:09:18  <najzere> Secondardy toc?
2009-11-07T13:09:21  <Prod> but it's also a good place for incoming links
2009-11-07T13:09:36  <Procyon> huh?
2009-11-07T13:09:37  <Notmyhandle> What is a secondary ToC?
2009-11-07T13:09:44  <Prod> you've got the toc on the front page
2009-11-07T13:09:44  <najzere> You WANT people to go to an empty page?
2009-11-07T13:09:57  <Prod> only if there's useful places it links to
2009-11-07T13:09:58  <najzere> Oh, you mean a REDUNDANT toc.
2009-11-07T13:10:04  <najzere> Yeah, I'm against those.
2009-11-07T13:10:06  <Prod> call it what you will :P
2009-11-07T13:10:10  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T13:10:17  <najzere> Okay, let's think about it for next time.
2009-11-07T13:10:21  <Notmyhandle> Prod, we're saying its better to be honest and say the page is completely empty.
2009-11-07T13:10:24  <Prod> some people don't figure out the show button
2009-11-07T13:10:25  <Procyon> Naj, so you don't think the FN on a WT page should be open by default?
2009-11-07T13:10:31  <Prod> nono
2009-11-07T13:10:34  <Notmyhandle> We are against redundant ToC's through policy
2009-11-07T13:10:34  <najzere> Yes definitely.
2009-11-07T13:10:38  <Notmyhandle> We've always removed them
2009-11-07T13:10:38  <Prod> he says the whole page should be deleted
2009-11-07T13:10:47  <Notmyhandle> It should if there's nothing there
2009-11-07T13:10:49  <najzere> *empty page
2009-11-07T13:10:49  <Notmyhandle> It's dishonest
2009-11-07T13:10:53  <najzere> Yeah.
2009-11-07T13:10:58  <Notmyhandle> People will be pissed if they go to it
2009-11-07T13:11:02  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T13:11:03  <Prod> i think we've got like 3 or 4 overlapping discussions going
2009-11-07T13:11:09  <Procyon> yeah
2009-11-07T13:11:10  <najzere> Yeah, ahaah.
2009-11-07T13:11:13  <Notmyhandle> Yup
2009-11-07T13:11:18  <Prod> here's the case
2009-11-07T13:11:20  <Prod> new guide starting
2009-11-07T13:11:22  <Procyon> (Well at least we all agree on that)
2009-11-07T13:11:25  <Prod> so far only front page
2009-11-07T13:11:31  <Prod> person creates empty walkthrough page
2009-11-07T13:11:34  <Prod> with navs
2009-11-07T13:11:35  <Skizzerz> lies, we have 5
2009-11-07T13:11:41  <Notmyhandle> shh
2009-11-07T13:11:44  <najzere> :P
2009-11-07T13:11:44  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T13:11:54  <Prod> that's the situation
2009-11-07T13:11:55  <Prod> the question is
2009-11-07T13:11:58  <Prod> do we delete the walkthrough page
2009-11-07T13:12:00  <Notmyhandle> Yes
2009-11-07T13:12:02  <Prod> in this case i say yes
2009-11-07T13:12:03  <najzere> Yes
2009-11-07T13:12:06  <Notmyhandle> Agreed
2009-11-07T13:12:09  <najzere> Or don't start it. :/
2009-11-07T13:12:11  <Procyon> yes
2009-11-07T13:12:13  <Prod> now, the person instead goes on to create a few subpages
2009-11-07T13:12:18  <Prod> some of the sub walkthrough pages
2009-11-07T13:12:24  <Procyon> Well, I imagine the people who creates it doesn't know better.
2009-11-07T13:12:24  <Prod> but leaves the walkthrough page empty
2009-11-07T13:12:36  <Prod> that case i say we leave it
2009-11-07T13:12:41  <Notmyhandle> well as someone with knowledge, you can summarize the walkthrough section
2009-11-07T13:12:42  <najzere> I say delete.
2009-11-07T13:12:43  <Procyon> ooof
2009-11-07T13:12:48  <Notmyhandle> I don't think that changes anything Prod
2009-11-07T13:12:50  <Notmyhandle> delete
2009-11-07T13:12:50  <Procyon> Yeah, there has to be SOMETHING.
2009-11-07T13:12:59  <Prod> it has useful links
2009-11-07T13:13:03  <Notmyhandle> ?
2009-11-07T13:13:05  <najzere> So does the toc.
2009-11-07T13:13:07  <Notmyhandle> The ToC has useful links
2009-11-07T13:13:07  <Procyon> Sometimes I have a tough time coming up with something to say for a very linear game.
2009-11-07T13:13:07  <Prod> and people are likely to get to us by searching for walkthrough
2009-11-07T13:13:13  <Prod> so they are likely to hit the walkthrough page first
2009-11-07T13:13:14  <najzere> It, like the walkthough, is one click away.
2009-11-07T13:13:26  <Notmyhandle> Proc: yeah the walkthrough section is painful for me.
2009-11-07T13:13:27  <najzere> We want them to see an empty page?
2009-11-07T13:13:35  <Procyon> The walkthrough for Gears of War is to start on the first level, and progress through each continuing level.
2009-11-07T13:13:39  <Prod> anyone remember karlcsr?
2009-11-07T13:13:44  <Notmyhandle> I love KArl
2009-11-07T13:13:45  <Rocky> yup
2009-11-07T13:13:46  <Skizzerz> vaguely
2009-11-07T13:13:50  <najzere> Let's at "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" to them.
2009-11-07T13:13:51  <Procyon> yup
2009-11-07T13:13:53  <Notmyhandle> R.I.P. Karl
2009-11-07T13:14:04  <najzere> add*
2009-11-07T13:14:14  <Notmyhandle> lol
2009-11-07T13:14:17  <najzere> I just can't think of a single blank page I've been to on WP.
2009-11-07T13:14:19  <Notmyhandle> How about... not.
2009-11-07T13:14:21  <najzere> Or any wiki for that matter.
2009-11-07T13:14:22  <Procyon> There's alway SOMETHING to say...
2009-11-07T13:14:31  <Prod> gamerwiki :P
2009-11-07T13:14:33  <najzere> But if they don't say it...
2009-11-07T13:14:38  <Procyon> Naj: Cuz we mandate the existence of those pages.
2009-11-07T13:14:42  <Skizzerz> najzere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BlankPage
2009-11-07T13:14:43  <najzere> Even gamerwiki just leaves their red links.
2009-11-07T13:14:48  <Notmyhandle> Header/Footer nav does NOT equal content.
2009-11-07T13:14:51  <Notmyhandle> Delete
2009-11-07T13:15:05  <najzere> Skizzerz, is that really not just a developer joke?
2009-11-07T13:15:15  <Skizzerz> no, it serves a valid developer purpose
2009-11-07T13:15:15  <Procyon> We mandate three subpages minimum... ToC, Getting Started, and Walkthrough.
2009-11-07T13:15:19  <Skizzerz> it's used for benchmarking
2009-11-07T13:15:27  <najzere> I've heard that, but don't see how it's used.
2009-11-07T13:15:30  <Procyon> (And don't get me started on the naming convention for Getting Started... I'm still sour about that)
2009-11-07T13:15:33  <Prod> GS is optional :P
2009-11-07T13:15:36  <Notmyhandle> Off topic
2009-11-07T13:15:44  <najzere> Yes, we should change them all to "Getting started".
2009-11-07T13:15:50  <Procyon> No it's not.
2009-11-07T13:15:53  <Procyon> It's on the CN
2009-11-07T13:15:58  <Prod> or controls :P
2009-11-07T13:16:00  <najzere> It defaults to Controls with no GS
2009-11-07T13:16:05  <Procyon> oh
2009-11-07T13:16:06  <Prod> GS is a required heading, but optional link
2009-11-07T13:16:09  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T13:16:14  <najzere> Anywayz...
2009-11-07T13:16:32  <Prod> (najzere): start a forum thread :P
2009-11-07T13:16:40  <najzere> Yeah, hold your breath, okay?
2009-11-07T13:16:43  <Prod> the forum threads are more for tracking
2009-11-07T13:16:50  <Procyon> I'm fine with killing blank WT pages.
2009-11-07T13:16:55  <najzere> me too
2009-11-07T13:17:05  <Prod> i say kill the ones where toc is useless
2009-11-07T13:17:16  <Prod> and i'd prefer to keep the rest
2009-11-07T13:17:18  <Procyon> When is the ToC useless? o_O;
2009-11-07T13:17:19  <Prod> but we discuss next time
2009-11-07T13:17:26  <najzere> Well, let's make a decision next time.
2009-11-07T13:17:30  <najzere> Damn, stop ninja'ing me.
2009-11-07T13:17:31  <Procyon> ok
2009-11-07T13:17:33  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T13:17:42  <Procyon> Let's wrap this meeting up,
2009-11-07T13:17:43  <najzere> Disambiguation pages.
2009-11-07T13:17:46  <najzere> Okay, n/m
2009-11-07T13:17:46  <Procyon> We accomplished a lot.
2009-11-07T13:17:50  <Procyon> No, no,
2009-11-07T13:17:52  <Procyon> go ahead.
2009-11-07T13:17:58  <Prod> KILL KILL KILL!!
2009-11-07T13:18:01  <najzere> Well, I've started some.
2009-11-07T13:18:02  <Prod> *cough *
2009-11-07T13:18:02  <najzere> Haha.
2009-11-07T13:18:02  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T13:18:11  <Notmyhandle> I like the dracula disambig page
2009-11-07T13:18:18  <Prod> i want it dead :)
2009-11-07T13:18:22  <Notmyhandle> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dracula_%28disambiguation%29
2009-11-07T13:18:38  <najzere> Let's also table this one, but think about it for next time.
2009-11-07T13:18:39  <Prod> not undead, dead
2009-11-07T13:18:53  <najzere> I feel that this will take some discussing.
2009-11-07T13:19:00  <Prod> start a thread!!!
2009-11-07T13:19:01  <Prod> :D
2009-11-07T13:19:13  <Prod> for the agenda for next week
2009-11-07T13:19:14  <Procyon> true
2009-11-07T13:19:15  <najzere> Next: please put your opinion on the control table style discussion on staff lounge.
2009-11-07T13:19:17  <Prod> next month *
2009-11-07T13:19:19  <Prod> start a thread
2009-11-07T13:19:23  <Prod> link to it from the meeting thread
2009-11-07T13:19:27  <Procyon> I don't have a strong opinion :(
2009-11-07T13:19:33  <Notmyhandle> Yeah you do
2009-11-07T13:19:34  <najzere> And on collapsible infobox content.
2009-11-07T13:19:57  <Skizzerz> then I believe Deviance had one thing about the rc feed after we finish this
2009-11-07T13:19:59  <Procyon> OK, I have NMH's strong opinion
2009-11-07T13:20:06  <Notmyhandle> ahaha
2009-11-07T13:20:12  <najzere> You know what? All my points aren't going to take a short time so just forget about it until next time.
2009-11-07T13:20:25  <Procyon> Next meeting = naj's meeting ;)
2009-11-07T13:20:25  <najzere> I just want to know the status on MultipleUpload.
2009-11-07T13:20:35  <najzere> More like Scope's meeting.
2009-11-07T13:20:37  <Prod> (najzere): there's some weird bug i can't get rid of
2009-11-07T13:20:41  <Procyon> Oh sweet MultipleUpload... how I miss thee.
2009-11-07T13:20:42  <najzere> Okay, thanks.
2009-11-07T13:20:52  <Skizzerz> we incinerated it, along with the weighted companion cube
2009-11-07T13:20:53  <Procyon> Foul temptress...
2009-11-07T13:20:57  <najzere> That's all from me.
2009-11-07T13:21:01  <Procyon> The cake is a lie,.
2009-11-07T13:21:13  <najzere> I'd just like to say that although I'm open for everything as far as scope goes, I'm MORE for a policy we can enforce.
2009-11-07T13:21:31  <najzere> What about RSS feed?
2009-11-07T13:21:39  <Notmyhandle> I have some stuff if Deviance doesnt talk
2009-11-07T13:21:41  <Prod> there is now an rss feed....
2009-11-07T13:21:50  <Prod> it's in #strategywiki-rc
2009-11-07T13:21:51  <Procyon> Of what specifically?
2009-11-07T13:21:55  <Prod> recent changes
2009-11-07T13:22:00  <Procyon> oh cool
2009-11-07T13:22:01  <Rocky> recent changes
2009-11-07T13:22:12  <Deviance> usually up most pf the time
2009-11-07T13:22:14  <najzere> It has been extremely helpful the past couple weeks.
2009-11-07T13:22:41  <najzere> I think double posts have been eliminated as well.
2009-11-07T13:22:49  <Skizzerz> Deviance: you mentioned near the beginning that you wanted to talk about it in some regard, care to elaborate?
2009-11-07T13:22:57  <Procyon> Slightly on-topic, slightly off-topic, but I've been thinking of using the Facebook group to announce when I complete guides...
2009-11-07T13:23:03  <Deviance> that was it
2009-11-07T13:23:07  <Notmyhandle> Go ahead
2009-11-07T13:23:13  <Procyon> Not sure how useful it would be.
2009-11-07T13:23:15  <najzere> Thanks Deviance!
2009-11-07T13:23:19  <Notmyhandle> Anything helps
2009-11-07T13:23:22  <Deviance> no prob
2009-11-07T13:23:27  <Notmyhandle> Alright i have something
2009-11-07T13:23:39  <Notmyhandle> Prod do you have the class we talked about last night?
2009-11-07T13:23:42  <Procyon> Never ending meeting ftw ^_^
2009-11-07T13:23:44  <Notmyhandle> For the tooltip exploration
2009-11-07T13:23:46  <Prod> vaguely
2009-11-07T13:23:50  <Notmyhandle> I can't find it in the logs
2009-11-07T13:23:55  <Skizzerz> ?
2009-11-07T13:23:59  <Prod> oh right
2009-11-07T13:24:00  <Prod> tooltips
2009-11-07T13:24:01  <Notmyhandle> yeah
2009-11-07T13:24:16  <Prod> essentially, nmh wants a new tooltip type control
2009-11-07T13:24:17  <Notmyhandle> I brought up the issue last night with Prod and Najzere about looking into JS concerning pop-up tooltips
2009-11-07T13:24:27  <najzere> I wasn't there. :/
2009-11-07T13:24:33  <Prod> it whas Rhonlore
2009-11-07T13:24:34  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T13:24:38  <najzere> Heh.
2009-11-07T13:24:39  <Notmyhandle> ah yes
2009-11-07T13:24:42  <Notmyhandle> anyways
2009-11-07T13:24:47  <Notmyhandle> It has been a very attractive feature of individual wikis such as WoWWiki
2009-11-07T13:24:55  <Rhonlore> I like tooltips
2009-11-07T13:25:00  * najzere nods.
2009-11-07T13:25:02  <Prod> (Notmyhandle): make some kind of mockup of how you want it used here (paint or something)
2009-11-07T13:25:03  <Notmyhandle> And I felt that if we were to compete with these, we should be able to mimic such a great feature
2009-11-07T13:25:09  <Notmyhandle> Oh sure
2009-11-07T13:25:13  <Prod> and start a thread and bring it up at the next meeting :)
2009-11-07T13:25:20  <Notmyhandle> Anyways, Prod had a class that I forgot to copy
2009-11-07T13:25:23  <Notmyhandle> to try and test out
2009-11-07T13:25:31  <Prod> the one from the tags
2009-11-07T13:25:34  <Notmyhandle> sure sure
2009-11-07T13:25:35  <Prod> articletag or something
2009-11-07T13:25:38  <Notmyhandle> right
2009-11-07T13:25:46  <Prod> next month
2009-11-07T13:25:48  <Notmyhandle> Alright thats settled for now
2009-11-07T13:25:52  <Notmyhandle> Next topic
2009-11-07T13:25:56  <Notmyhandle> Redirect categorization
2009-11-07T13:26:01  <najzere> OH yeah!
2009-11-07T13:26:04  <Notmyhandle> Should redirects be categorized with the date?
2009-11-07T13:26:08  <Skizzerz> gwah?
2009-11-07T13:26:10  <Notmyhandle> This is for alternate names
2009-11-07T13:26:13  <Notmyhandle> I.e. Biohazard 4
2009-11-07T13:26:17  <Notmyhandle> for Resident Evil 4
2009-11-07T13:26:18  * Prod votes no
2009-11-07T13:26:19  <Prod> no dates
2009-11-07T13:26:22  <Skizzerz> no dates
2009-11-07T13:26:26  <najzere> Why wouldn't it be categorized for everything?
2009-11-07T13:26:29  <Prod> only system, company, and Games
2009-11-07T13:26:33  <Notmyhandle> Should redirects be categorized with the date? Yes: the redirect  represents a game that was released. Should it be the first date? No, the regionalization occured at a specific time. That is the  time it should be categorized at.
2009-11-07T13:26:48  <Procyon> Yes
2009-11-07T13:26:50  <Prod> and genre
2009-11-07T13:26:50  <Notmyhandle> Therefore, Biohazard 4 should be categorized with the japanese release date, not the US
2009-11-07T13:26:51  <najzere> That makes sense to me.
2009-11-07T13:26:52  <Procyon> They really should,.
2009-11-07T13:26:56  <Notmyhandle> Ok
2009-11-07T13:26:58  <Procyon> Exactly.
2009-11-07T13:27:00  <Notmyhandle> I will modify the instructions
2009-11-07T13:27:02  <Prod> i say forget dates
2009-11-07T13:27:02  <Notmyhandle> Thank you
2009-11-07T13:27:03  <najzere> Not that anyone looks in a date category, but if they did, they should find the correct game names.
2009-11-07T13:27:04  <Prod> they don't help much
2009-11-07T13:27:08  <Prod> noone looks for a release by date
2009-11-07T13:27:10  <Notmyhandle> Next topic
2009-11-07T13:27:11  <Procyon> Our dating categories are a serious issue,.
2009-11-07T13:27:18  <najzere> What just happened?
2009-11-07T13:27:20  <Skizzerz> date categories are very muchso unused
2009-11-07T13:27:32  <Procyon> i was always for the year cats, but not for the date cats.
2009-11-07T13:27:33  <Skizzerz> Notmyhandle: there is no next topic
2009-11-07T13:27:37  <Notmyhandle> Cleanup Project "guide-ization"
2009-11-07T13:27:38  <najzere> Haha.
2009-11-07T13:27:41  <Notmyhandle> Prod did you want to address this?
2009-11-07T13:27:46  <Prod> i'll wait :P
2009-11-07T13:27:48  <Notmyhandle> k
2009-11-07T13:27:49  <Prod> next month
2009-11-07T13:27:50  <Notmyhandle> we're done
2009-11-07T13:27:51  <najzere> I can as well. >:(
2009-11-07T13:27:55  <Procyon> lol
2009-11-07T13:27:58  *** Skizzerz sets mode: +mo Procyon
2009-11-07T13:28:03  <Prod> XD
2009-11-07T13:28:07  <Skizzerz> right, let's finish this
2009-11-07T13:28:08  <Procyon> We CAN have mid-week meeting.
2009-11-07T13:28:12  <Procyon> Sorry,
2009-11-07T13:28:14  <Procyon> mid-month
2009-11-07T13:28:38  <Procyon> I will post the possibility of doing this on the forums.
2009-11-07T13:28:46  <Procyon> We can debate the need to do so there.
2009-11-07T13:29:04  <Procyon> Thanks everyone.  I would continue, but I think people are getting tired and/or have other things to attend to.
2009-11-07T13:29:15  <Procyon> This was phenominally productive.
2009-11-07T13:29:46  <Prod> Please edit Knights in the Nightmare as it is this month's collaboration
2009-11-07T13:29:56  <Procyon> We will, as usual, continue some of these discussions off-line and in next months meeting.
2009-11-07T13:30:20  <Procyon> I will keep you posted with news about GameWiki.com
2009-11-07T13:30:29  <Procyon> Thanks everyone, see you around.